Bleed Through - Page 1

Okay, so I've seen before that a solid black dog will grow up and eventually get a little red/brown on their legs. People say that this is just "bleed through," but the dog is still genetically a solid black.

But we know that bicolors/black and reds will be born mostly solid black and eventually the black will recede as the dog ages.

So couldn't these dogs be melanistic bicolors (since we see melanistic black and reds all the time with the extended saddle)?

We also know that some black dogs, when bred to a sable, will produce extremely dark (melanistic?) sable puppies.

Is it possible that these dogs are bicolor and carrying the recessive black gene that shows "co-dominance?" (Like I'm the case with black sables.)

Has anyone ever actually genetically mapped these dogs to see if they actually are a/a and not at/a?


On a related note, I've noticed that there are some black dogs that pass their recessive black gene to their sable offspring but that dog turns out to be a lighter or faded sable, then other black dogs pass their black gene on and will produce extremely dark sable dogs.

Do you think that some recessive black genes show co-dominance while others are completely recessive and stay under the dominant color? Or do you think that there are some sable genes that "allow" the recessive gene to come through? Because I've also seen sable dogs with recessive black and red that you can 100% tell they're carrying the black and red gene because they look like black and red dogs but with the sable banded fur.

Now that I think about it, the second seems more likely, huh.

Excuse my 4am rant.

"Because I've also seen sable dogs with recessive black and red that you can 100% tell they're carrying the black and red gene because they look like black and red dogs but with the sable banded fur." That would be a "Pattern" sable, and they carry one sable gene and one black and tan gene. I have a couple of black East German girls with the bleed-through that you are talking about. First ones I have ever had, and I have had a number of black dogs. If the puppy is born solid black, they're black. That bleed-through is generally seasonal, showing up more in the winter. It is gone in summer with my girls. I have not genetically mapped them.  My friends with American Showlines have told me you almost NEVER find a true black in Showlines - that most of them have the bleed-through.  That's not the case with German working lines.

 

That's what I meant when I said "sable carrying black and red," a dog carrying one sable gene and one black and red gene.

I said this to somebody else earlier (about their dog) and confused them. Is it my wording?

 

I DNA Tested this girl and she came back aa R96C +/+. She was all black when she was a baby but has progressively gotten more and more bleed thru as she gets older. The adult photo is a few years old now. She has even more tan now.

I think you will certainly confuse readers if you use the term "co-dominance",  (at any time of day, LOL).

I was going to refer you to a link on this, which I believe is a rather outdated term, but cannot make the url I had work ...sorry


 

I couldn't think of a better word for what I was thinking besides "co-dominance."

But that's interesting! So she is aa. Huh.

Genetics are so confusing.

Without writing a book on genetics simply put .... dilution and extension genes affect color.  Simplistic genetics such as the outdated science used by OFA and SV can not explain or predict many real world outcomes. I once bred two GSD with dew claws and got none, zero, or nil offspring in a litter of 6 with dew claws. Dominant and recessive expression is a guideline but not a rule.

SentinelHearts, do you have a photo of the puppy from the back? What color was she under her tail?