Sable puppy showing in AKC - Page 12

Susie, Les is in New Zealand, they are different to Australians, LOL. While I don't think you should accuse anyone of forgetting about those other important aspects of the GSD just because they happen to be having a discussion about certain physical traits, it is noticeable that the Breed 'fancy' in ALL of NZ, Oz, UK, and elsewhere, IS a bit less likely to debate temperament and working ability when discussing the breed, because traditionally the S/L people have not 'worked' their stock ...that is beginning to change but it would have helped, years ago, if, when allowing certain Clubs to join its ranks in each country, the SV had INSISTED that if they became member-clubs they would have to actively work and Körung their animals.

Great question Susie....

It will be interesting to know how does a person, who regards the Breed Standard as his Bible, selects his pup so that the all-round working abilities of the breed aren't compromised.

Looks are genetic, but what about character & temperament? How much of those are taught vs genetics?

Swarnendu, I knew little about the dog under discussion, except that he proved a VERY popular sire. Maybe that was because the IPO element of what he'd achieved in Germany was exceptional, maybe it wasn't. Given what I have said about the S/L people outside of Germany mostly not paying enough attention to the working elements of the breed, unless forced into doing so, perhaps those elements were not being considered enough.  Which would have been one good reason against 'everyone' not jumping on the bandwagon, here in the UK, and using him as 'flavour of the month' stud dog.  But I was not about to major on that

point when I was ignorant of what he'd achieved - or not - as I have no wish to start libelling individual animals on here.  I had never had to consider him as a potential sire myself for any reason, or I would have researched him better.  All I do know is that I kept seeing young stock in the rings over here that were identified as his daughters, and a couple of sons, and almost all had this particular 'look' to their heads which made them noticeably siblings.  Now these heads may have been something I just didn't like much, but I am not suggesting that it was of particular relevence to their being correct to the GSD Standard, or that it was of some greater importance than temperament or working ability. Whether or not anyone else noticed it or not, or did but disregarded it, isn't terribly relevant (unless Les is suggesting I imagine things ?).

But I would caution against entirely disregarding something physical but unimportant that appears to creep into the dogs ... maybe if more attention had been paid - by those who mattered (i.e. serious breeders, and Judges) - to excess heights, for example, or to that 'break' where the back joins the croup, or the growing numbers of dogs with extra-weak hocks / resting back on their whole hock area while standing or (good grief !) walking - we would not be in the situation we currently find ourselves in on a world-wide basis ?

And surely that falls into at least PART of the description of 'overuse' and 'bottlenecking', Les ?

"Looks are genetic, but what about character & temperament? How much of those are taught vs genetics?"

The basics of character and temperament are genetic, too, at least in my mind.

The older the dog, the bigger the chance that both temperament and character became "influenced" - single traits either developed or suppressed. That´s what we call "education".

Sorry, VK4, for mixing up Oz and NZ..  I should have known better...

Yeah, isn't he due back by now ? Pete, if you are reading, we (some of us) miss you !

Agree with you on that Susie, there is surely adequate research nowadays that links temperament in the dog to the genetics of the dog. Probably in other species as well.

[Hundmutter] 17.8.2016 - 17:08

● "It isn't whether the dog himself was apple-domed, although I suppose there might have been some genetic twist on that in what he sired; but that 90% of the get of his that I had seen in the flesh had similar, but hard to define, head & expression. Something about the look across their eyes - maybe in the planes of the face, but I cannot describe it in the terms we usually use to define a correct head. Anyhow it was almost always present and recognisable, even if not actually 'incorrect'. They just looked a bit 'odd' , and alike, to me."

 

DownUnder interpretation: "He was used on lots of crappy Pommy bitches with a head fault!"
No no - don't throw Tower Bridge at me - there will be people needing to use it to get home!
I went to   http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=433761-philipp-aus-der-neuen-hauffstrae&p=progeny   and wonder whether Usharggo Malan might have the sort of head you meant. But I'll leave it to you to find photos of whatever head shape you are thinking of. What's IN the head is more important than its appearance.
 

● "Meet 'Sheila' (really, although I suppose that would be funnier if you were from elsewhere in the Antipodes)"
I'm not in or on the Antipodes. YOUR antipodes is deep & wet. Although NZ is sort-of-close to your antipodes (the chilly Antipodes Islands are about 800km east-sou'east of NZ). NZ's antipodes is in northern Spain.

And I don't "get" what I quoted re 'Sheila'.

 

[susie] 17.8.2016 - 18:08
● "What about working ability?"
Who are you asking?
[Hundmutter] wrote the previous 2 messages, I wrote the one before that. But neither of us lives in Oz.
And the AKC (in this thread's Subject line) has no interest in real work.

Working ability is VERY important to Kiwi - when I was a child there were 80 sheep for each man, woman and child. But that has dropped to about 30 each now - some being used for milk instead of just the traditional wool + mutton + sheep-skin mats. However, it is the Border Collie that suited our graziers. Whether there were GSDs as well as Hounds incorporated with the BCs used to develop the noisy NZ Huntaway we'll probably never know.
When I moved into Whanganui city. my first trainer was Doug Mieklin, the PD handler who went on to head the Trentham Police Dog School (until "they" asked him to take early retirement. because he was a lousy breeder). And the owner of the local security firm "demanded" that I put "the sleeve" on so that his bitch could chase me down the street at about midnight (she KNEW I was a friend, not a "baddie", so didn't bother). My first GSD ended up droving sheep (Collie style) along SH.1. Liz Foster, the second president of our GSD Advisory Council, had some sheep and used her GSDs to work them - but probably Collie-style rather than GSD-style.

● "You are talking about conformation, very close inbreeding (!), but not about any working ability (no obedience titles, please )."
💘 Conformation is important as to whether a pooch is - and can perform as - a BSD, a Collie, a GSD or something else. Most "modern" GSDs are too deep & heavy to perform the breed's tasks.
💘 Inbreeding has its place - but should NOT be concentrated on. Our breed's great period was probably in about the 1950s & '60s, after it had been declared that enough in-breeding had been done by the pioneers and it was now time to out-breed as much as possible.
💘 Obedience is CRUCIAL to any pooch required to work - but so is INITIATIVE. I suspect that YOU count only the spectacular (but leaving the dog vulnerable to an adversary while it is stuck in a ballistic trajectory and unable to change direction) leaps that are enthusiastically applauded by crowds at DogSport competitions. I also realise that you - like most DogSport addicts - misuse the word TITLE.
All titles are stated in FRONT of the name - Baron, Bishop, Ch., Dr., Emperor, Führer, Kaiser, King, Lord, President, Queen, etc. So there are working titles such as Agility Ch., BSP Sgr., Int.Ch.(T), Obed.Ch., PreisHüteSieger (& about 4 other variations on that "HGH Ch." title), WT.Ch., WUSV Sgr.
But the "letters" such as ADX, BSc, CGC, DVM, HGH, IPO, MBA, PhD, SchH, WDX, ZVV that go AFTER the name are NOT titles - they are QUALIFICATIONS.

● "For someone pointing out the "original" standard that often you seem to forget character and temperament."
Who points THAT standard out? Not me! Not [Hundmutter].
 
I've stated when the original was ADOPTED (20.9.1899), but what I CITE is the International Standard of the GSD, as nowadays approved by conferences of the WUSV, and available in 4 languages on the FCI web-site.
I have its predecessor in my computer. I've asked about earlier versions:
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20160514082308AAnx3QK
but the Y!A kids rarely know what they're talking about, as proven by the lack of answers to my question.

● "Even in Oz there should be some working dog clubs. Maybe you only forgot to mention the working dog traits..."
Oz has regulatory problems with anything that appears to involve attack-training. But it does have DogSport clubs:   http://www.schutzhundaustralia.com/

So does NZ:   http://www.dogsport.co.nz/index.html   &   https://www.facebook.com/Kiwi-Sport-Hunde-Club-1605919086329969/   &   http://www.schutzhund.org.nz/
Two days ago I received   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXMud7xj6ss&feature=related   from an Australian source, but as Ich nicht sprechen sie Deutsche I sent it to some contacts, and as a result I yesterday received a response from Raino Fluegge, Canada's SV Working Judge, re   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Z8mEQ_qqjs   about the SV's new Temperament Test that I had circulated at the weekend - it is not SchH, it is an alternative route for gaining eligibility for KKl./BS.Cl. and some breeding rights. But at present I consider it inferior to the tests used in Sweden.

So I don't FORGET the "working dog traits" - I just have a different definition of them than you probably do. This   http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2341555   is likely to be the mother of my next GSD, depending on her hip & elbow scores, the stud her breeder-owner decides to use, and what I think of her conformation and attitude when I eventually own an automatic ute so that I can once again DRIVE myself to places instead of relying on taxis (I WISH I still had my clutch foot!). I might even keep on going and visit my sister, 300km away (but SHE has only Pomeranians...).

 

[Hundmutter] 18.6.2016 - 07:08
● "Susie, Les is in New Zealand, they are different to Australians, LOL."
DEFINITELY. Although my mother's mother was an Ozzie (the Tasmanian Devil variety), and my father-in-law and mother-in-law were both raised in Australia. So we aren't ALWAYS separate.
Kiwi & Ozzies work well together as ANZACs in wartime, but the rest of the time we LOVE to beat each other in various sports.

● "it would have helped, years ago, if, when allowing certain Clubs to join its ranks in each country, the SV had INSISTED that if they became member-clubs they would have to actively work and Körung their animals."
Definitely.
However, back in 1970-72 Dr Rummel and his associates who were keen to develop the EUSV into a WUSV, recognised that few outside Europe were ready for being FORBIDDEN to breed from pooches without an HGH or SchH, and so clubs were invited to join simply because they were the first to actually invite an SV judge to visit their nation. Back then, NZ had only 3 GSD clubs, and the shows judged by Herr Philip Hutter in 1967 and Dr Christoph Rummel in 1972 were NOTHING like a specialist show. I delighted in mowing the gaiting ring for NZ's FIRST specialist show - an Open Show at Cambridge in 1975, judged by Australian SV judge Louis Donald.


[Swarnendu] 18.8.2016 - 12:08

● "It will be interesting to know how does a person, who regards the Breed Standard as his Bible,"
NEVER! Bibles (such as the books by McDowell Lyon and by Clarence Pfaffenberger) never need to be changed. But Breed Standards get changed every few years....

● "selects his pup so that the all-round working abilities of the breed aren't compromised."
By avoiding (well, TRYING to avoid - with Bea I wasnt successful in avoiding the modern cow-hocks, and not 100% successful in avoiding the modern too-drep chest) EXTREMES - the extremes of the show ring AND the extremes of the DogSport ring - and by being very cynical about what judges report. The "middle of the road" is NOT a good place for drivers, but is a VERY useful place for breeders who can live very happily with dogs that are great to live with but are not "Supreme Champions" at conformation events and not "WUSV World Siegers" (the IPO/SchH contests).

● "Looks are genetic, but what about character & temperament? How much of those are taught vs genetics?"
Actually, nowadays, thanks to neuticles, coat dyeing, docking, ear cropping or gluing/taping, elbow operations (I know 2 GSDs that NZKC allowed to complete their Ch. titles after having their elbow dysplasia corrected) and artificial "stacking" that includes the handler pulling downwards on the hairs of the pooch's thigh, "Looks" can be a LONG way removed from the pooch's genetics.
 

When it comes to character, genetics set the foundation, environment can "improve" or "destroy" the foundation to a large degree without TOTALLY overcoming that foundation. It is usually better to NOT use a stud until he has had enough litters to make it apparent what his genetic contribution is rather than what his environment has produced.


[Hundmutter] 18.8.2016 - 13:08
● "But I would caution against entirely disregarding something physical but unimportant that appears to creep into the dogs ... maybe if more attention had been paid - by those who mattered (i.e. serious breeders, and Judges) - to excess heights, for example, or to that 'break' where the back joins the croup, or the growing numbers of dogs with extra-weak hocks / resting back on their whole hock area while standing or (good grief !) walking - we would not be in the situation we currently find ourselves in on a world-wide basis ?"
I'll give you "points" for everything except your sloppy use of the term "back". The back is a mere 5 bones at the rear of the thoracic section, roughly above the floating ribs. It does NOT "join the croup". The LOIN aka the lumbar vertebrae is the bridge between the back and the croup. Sloppy language doesn't distinguish between "top-line", "back-line" and "back", but people who breed or judge MUST use those terms pedantically.
And to disciples of McDowell Lyon ("The Dog in Action") NONE of the aspects you mentioned there is "unimportant", so perhaps you should wear your hair-shirt for a week or two?

● "And surely that falls into at least PART of the description of 'overuse' and 'bottlenecking', Les ?"
The terms are actually different, albeit related.
▫ To a purist, using a crappy pooch even ONCE without getting what you sought is "overuse".
▫ I haven't seen a genetic definition of the term "bottle-neck", but the shape of a bottle suggests that, based on πr² being the formula for the area of a circle, the term probably requires the breed's genes narrowed down to be something like 1π² instead of  4π² - which would be something like 95% of the breed's genes coming from that ancestor, 5% being free of that ancestor.
I can't imagine ANY current GSD being free of genes from Horand von Grafrath. I suspect that Palme vom Wildsteiger Land would be close to being a "bottleneck" in the German "noble-lines".


I'm quite happy with [susie]'s 18.8.2016 - 18:08 (although I don't yet know what [VK4] has to do with Oz) and [Hundmutter]'s 18.8.2016 - 18:08 remarks except that when it comes to her "there is surely adequate research nowadays that links temperament in the dog to the genetics of the dog" I am impelled to point out that #1: there are so MANY alleles of so MANY genes involved involved in attitude/character/temperament, and such an IMMENSITY of interactions possible between them, that almost ANYTHING can unexpectedly pop up by mere chance. And breeders must NEVER forget #2: The dam is FAR more important than the sire. He supplies only genes. SHE supplies not only genes and her mitochondria but also almost the whole environment for at least 4 months - nutrients & "mood"-hormones (such as adrenaline (noradrenaline/ /norepinephrine/epinephrine), cortisol, estrogen & testosterone) during gestation, then nutrition & antibodies and attitudinal/emotional "guidance" prior to the pups going to their new owners.

Well Les, I thought about referring to the loin, but decided to go with my own preferred interpretation (and Brian W's among others) that the 'loin' is an area of the flank, not a part of the spine itself, and therefore cannot be included in the overline in the way you wish.
(Not sure the original German standard helps with this).

What I said about research and genes and temperament does not preclude my additional view that everything is a 'crap-shoot', ie so complex that anything can come out of the melting pot even when you know the factor or performance trait you seek is in there, somewhere ! Merely trying to give a succinct answer to what Swarnendu posted.

Pete alias VK4 is an Australian poster who went 'absent-with-leave' just before you got here. We are not entirely sure if he was banned or banned himself ! But others who stopped posting around the same time are now back and in full flow, and it is suspected (hoped ?) that VK is still lurking sometimes to see what is happening on PDB. He can be an obnoxious,rude git, but he is also sharply observant and has some good ideas. He is also making the best of the job with training his dogs in near-outback, with not a lot of facilities at his disposal, but even so is not afraid to illustrate his mistakes as well as his triumphs, a fact some of us admired.

The ref to Sheila is not about any quote of yours; just thought you might appreciate the irony (unlike just about anyone else posting here) that I inherited the name with the dog and it is the same as that of the Hon Sec of the UK Breed Council. And of course Sheilas are girls in Oz, which as a Kiwi I expect you MIGHT have heard, once or twice ...

I apologise for lumping NZ into the Antipodes along with Oz - we were taught that was ok at my school. LOL.

To Les The Kiwi Pauling...

Les The Kiwi Pauling on 19 August 2016 - 07:08 : "Who are you asking?"

I asked you. The best looking German Shepherd Dog in my eyes is useless for breeding in case the dog doesn´t have working ability.
I really like good looking German Shepherd Dogs ( FCI 166 ), but even the best conformation for me is useless in case the dog isn´t able to work.

You talked about a female, and you talked about possible matings, and a puppy out of the resulting breeding.

Although I am German I am not that narrow minded to believe in IPO only, why do you think so?
I believe in working abilities, drive, temperament, character - all of this ( for me ) more important than a well shaped head.

I am pretty aware that outside of Europe IPO trials are not that common, I only wanted to know if you take care of temperament, character, working ability, too, or if you are interested in conformation only.

Your answer was not very defined, talking about the past doesn´t explain anything about your decisions and criterias of selection today.

Kind regards

[Hundmutter] 19.8.2016 - 13:08

● "Well Les, I thought about referring to the loin, but decided to go with my own preferred interpretation (and Brian W's among others) that the 'loin' is an area of the flank, not a part of the spine itself, and therefore cannot be included in the overline in the way you wish."
Okay - I worked a 1957-58 long hot summer (they were so desperate that they asked my boarding school to let me leave before the end of year, and as I had already been awarded University Entrance & accepted for teachers' college, the school agreed. In the UK that was probably the November, December & January that Flanders & Swann sing about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eT40eV7OiI ) as a knife-hand at the Feilding Freezing Works, so will accept that a purist master-butcher might quibble about the difference between the loin and the sirloin and the tenderloin and various French cuts from that area. See http://www.foodsubs.com/MeatBeefLoin.html
But in non-purist terms the "loin" is the area surrounding the lumbar section of the spine, stated as "Loin - the parts of the body located on both sides of the backbone between the ribs and the hips." in http://www.nrta.com/newsletter/dec2003/anatomy.html (I'd prefer "backbone" changed to "spine", seeing as so many dog-owners think the back is the bit over the belly) and also shown in http://bagsdr.org/german-shepherd-dog-breed-standard.html (it's TERRIBLE when we have to get a YANK to teach a couple of Poms - one of them a retired school teacher! - what English words mean!).

● "(Not sure the original German standard helps with this)."
Aaargh! You've just let me down! I stated that neither you nor I had referred to "the original standard" - and there YOU did!

● "Pete alias VK4 is an Australian poster who went 'absent-with-leave' just before you got here. We are not entirely sure if he was banned or banned himself ! (snip) He can be an obnoxious,rude git, but he is also sharply observant and has some good ideas."
Ozzies - especially their sports teams - are renowned for being obnoxious. Just ask the Pakistani Cricket team that whopped them 3 : nil this month!
And today our All Blacks found an eelctronic "bug" in their accomidation in Australia. Didn't do the Wallabies any good - it inspired our All Blacks to THRASH them 42 : 3 on AUSTRALIAN territory: http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/83381258/All-Blacks-thrash-Australia-at-ANZ-Stadium-in-Sydney

● "The ref to Sheila is not about any quote of yours; just thought you might appreciate the irony (unlike just about anyone else posting here) that I inherited the name with the dog and it is the same as that of the Hon Sec of the UK Breed Council. And of course Sheilas are girls in Oz, which as a Kiwi I expect you MIGHT have heard, once or twice ..."
To those who believe in punctuation, a sheila or a sheilah is a member of that inferior-but-attractive species alleged to have invaded from Venus and referred to in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJNSWkgPr9g
Whereas Sheila is an individual member of that alien species - the one you mention is a particularly busy one who was haunted by TV (her dead husband) when she had his swimming pool demolished. But I must soon remind her that I made a request a couple of weeks ago for permission to reprint some material - she must be about ready to tell the printer to run the August magazine, so will have time to breathe for a few hours. I ALWAYS tell her off when she fails to make room in it for her "Let's Talk Turkey".

● "I apologise for lumping NZ into the Antipodes along with Oz - we were taught that was ok at my school. LOL."
You can see why Britain's and the USA's state education cisterns - er... SYSTEMS - are neck-&-neck way down in the 2015 PISA survey of the OECD education systems.
But neither Britain nor NZ could fit "into" the Antipodes' 20 sq.km (7.7 sq.miles): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipodes_Islands
And as that is a nature reserve on the UNESCO World Heritage List, there is no general public access. You would NEVER get permission to lump Australia's 7.69 million sq.km/2.97 million sq,miles  (the planet's sixth largest country after Russia, Canada, China, the USA, and Brazil) all over it.
Without the capital "A", the antipodes is just the place furthest from you on the opposite side of the planet.
Caution - although it is shorter to tunnel straight through the centre of the planet, Earth's hot core makes going around the outside advisable.