Defense - Page 5

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BlackMalinois

by BlackMalinois on 29 April 2016 - 13:04

 


Very funny but real defense dogs are a rare find in sport world on the podium

Most of them are moviestars in prey drive acting in defense just saying.
 

Like to know wich sport top level podium trainers and dogs today work in real defense

Today  dogs have a ball or sleeve only in the blind without any helper acting the guard in the earlier days with oldchool dogs I bet there were much more

dogs working in their  natural behaviour  and helpers who can work very well in defense,  today the dogs looks more flashy that is for sure.

 

 

 

 


Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 29 April 2016 - 14:04

@ Joan, I don't know enough about the guide dogs schools
in the US to know what they do - but here in the UK the
Guide Dogs Association do not expect their Puppy Walking
families to allow the juniors to run riot, e.g. just because they
are under six months old; they DO train, but in good manners,
basic obedience and general household living behaviour.
Of course the GDBA's own Trainers take over when they
get the older pups back, and start 'proper' seeing eye train-
ing exercises. I am unaware of any puppy walker being told
NOT to train any particular thing ! Same for puppy walking
for Hound packs.

by Bavarian Wagon on 29 April 2016 - 14:04

BlackMalinois…when was the last time you watched a national/world event? As in…attended one in person?

I didn’t say that people work the dogs in defense, I said most top level trainers will shape behaviors. Shaping is the foundation of most good dog’s obedience and even protection.

Flash means the dog won’t bite for real? Flash means the dogs aren’t working in defense? I love reading things on the internet as well…but I get most of my dog information from the real world. Parroting only gets you so far… So little actual knowledge of dog training. Every person who has ever said a flashy dog can’t work in defense, is a person that has failed time and time again to teach a dog flashy obedience. Or has a dog that just doesn’t have the drive to do it. Easiest cop out is to just bash the people that have the ability to train that and bash their dogs rather than step up your own training ability and get to where they are.

This sentence…”Toaday dogs have a ball or sleeve only in the blind without any helper acting the guard in the earlier days with oldchool dogs I bet there were much more” I can’t even respond to as I don’t have any idea what it actually means. But the “with old school dogs I bet there were much more” tells me you don’t actually know what happened in the old day, and you don’t have much of an idea of what happens today. You’re guessing and just making statements based off of what other people have probably ranted about online. I’ve read the rants too…so whenever I see that type of information being shared I know exactly where it comes from and the fact that it’s not based on any real experience. If with your sentence you’re making a jab at the “ball dropper phenomenon” I can guarantee you that VERY VERY VERY few people use that. Most people can’t teach a half way decent bark and hold on an active helper…there is no way they’d be able to teach a dog to bark for a ball dropped by a machine.

People need to stop watching YouTube videos and thinking that every club out there implements those techniques.

BlackMalinois

by BlackMalinois on 29 April 2016 - 14:04


B W I know my knowledge and experience and I know yours that is enough for me not going
in discussion with you on a lower level not wasting my time with you.

Once again show me one top level sport podium trainer and dog who work in real defense.


by joanro on 29 April 2016 - 14:04

Hund, that was my point: the pups are raised by families who start them in basic life skills ( to me, that's what 'raising a pup' means) before the pups go for formal training...in other words; the training..ALL of the training... is AGE appropriate. I never suggested pups are Not trained, just the opposite in fact ( reread my post on previous page). It all comes down to AGE appropriate training. That goes for anything a dog is intended for....


Gigante

by Gigante on 29 April 2016 - 14:04

New, revolutionary, revelation is there anything that some expert will not pop up and tell you the correct name for? Or if it works, how it works or doesn't. There really cant be a jaw dropping, new technique. It wont work on my dog anyways, so there.

Joan I dont think anyone would argue pushing anything in over its head is counter productive, that's certainly not a revelation. :)~ I imagine it can be done but setting up commands for communication between my dog and myself does not run a real risk of crushing his/her confidence or spirit.

BW says sport helpers are marking with a name now and real helpers will poo poo that, Im not sure what the argument against could be, maybe someone will chime in. Waiting for the dog to figure it out is what that game helps reduce in my mind.

@BW Everything you describe in the bottom of that middle paragraph seems off to me. If the dog is confused on what to do it seems to me its a disconnect between my dog and me. Trying to force in a civil not civil argument there seems off. It sounds more like mixed communication or weak foundation laid on whats expected in a scenario.

by joanro on 29 April 2016 - 15:04

'Joan I dont think anyone would argue pushing anything in over its head is counter productive, that's certainly not a revelation. :)~

Nobody said it is a 'revelation.

'setting up commands for communication between my dog and myself does not run a real risk of crushing his/her confidence or spirit. '

Nobody said 'basic' training is going to crush a dog's confidence. What I did say was training should be age appropriate...so appreciate you not scewing what I said.

by Bavarian Wagon on 29 April 2016 - 16:04

BlackMalinois, I appreciate your honesty in not wanting to debate. Shows you truly understand the difference in knowledge and choose to not go down that path.

Gigante...unfortunately your lack of English grammar doesn't allow me to answer any of the questions you tried to pose. If you want to speak about foundation, you've clearly not spent enough time at an IPO club. 95% of people that train at an IPO club never have a chance to lay a foundation because they're on their first dog and had no idea that they needed to start training at 8 weeks of age. Most people that are looking for a "protection dog" already have an older dog and are starting training much later in life. Most people fall into IPO the same way. There is never a chance to lay a foundation and so the helper does have to do a lot more to turn the dog from a “pet” to a “working dog.” And even those that might be on their second or third puppy, most don’t have a helper there to be able to lay a foundation in protection early on.

Those that keep repeating about prey/defense truly need to spend more time working dogs at an average IPO club…95% of the dogs are worked in defense because they lack prey. They need to feel a threat in order to respond in the ways that IPO expects of them. It is why so many fail when they trial their dogs…the helper isn’t allowed to help them by showing that threat, and so the dog doesn’t know what to do with itself.

The people commenting on how the “porch training” foundation is so important have proven it time and time again in the results their dogs show at trials…oh wait…

Gigante

by Gigante on 29 April 2016 - 17:04

Too funny BW no questions for you just pointing out how you misread the dog. Questions where directed to real helpers ;)


by Bavarian Wagon on 29 April 2016 - 17:04

What dog is there to misread? Another YouTube video? Yeah, I know that's where you "work" dogs. Click play and somehow that gets you somewhere.

Real helpers get results...especially on their own dogs.





 


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