Something to think about (Cesar Milan and others like him) - Page 1

I have my own theories regarding dog cognition and affect which I am sure some of you remember from previous posts....... 

Just food for thought......

 

http://irishdogs.ie/blogs/the-damage-of-the-dog-whisperer.html

Mindhunt, I really read this article, although it´s not that easy for me...

I like this comment: "
All animals need discipline including us humans. Just look at the state of our children who have no respect for adults, their property or authority. Now we are doing the same for dogs....In my opinion. ..positive punishment does not need to be traumatic. "

I am no Milan fan, but after all he is the result of our modern society. Dogs are not treated like dogs any more, but like toys. No wonder people have problems. His "quick fixes" are not my cup of tea, but we shouldn´t forget that he tries to "fix" problems dog owners created by themselves, mostly over years.

At the end there are two possibilities:
To fix the unwanted behavior as fast as possible
To give the dog away

A lot of people simply shouldn´t own dogs, but they do, nobody is going to ask the dog ( children ?!? ).
Milan´s greatest contribution to "modern dog ownership" is telling people that they need to educate their dogs, to give them the opportunity to live like dogs, and to show them their own shortcomings.

 

I took a look at the official Yellowstone website, because a couple of days back there was a discussion about wolves and "pack behavior" with Bubba...

These are quotes from the website:

" Wolves are highly social animals and live in packs. Worldwide, pack size will depend on the size and abundance of prey. In Yellowstone, average pack size is 10 individuals. The pack is a complex social family, with older members (often the alpha male and alpha female) and subordinates, each having individual personality traits and roles within the pack. Packs defend their territory from other, invading packs by howling and scent marking with urine. "

" Wolf packs are highly territorial and communicate with neighboring packs by scent-marking and howling. Occasionally packs encounter each other and these interactions are typically aggressive. Larger packs often defeat smaller groups, unless the small group has more old adult or adult male members. Sixty-five percent of collared wolves are ultimately killed by rival packs. "

Whom shall I believe, the "modern" studied behaviorists, the actual observers, or my own experience?

 

Don't agree with Milan training methods, although to me he is clearly based on the same methods we (me and Flávio) have been though on, the Trumler method, what is call the "classic" training... I do think some of his very basic theory's are ok, but somewhere along the way he lost track of dog training/phycology and focus to much on the "show" side of dog training...

I have seen a lot of episodes of Milan as I've seen of the UK trainer Mark Vette, it's fashionable right now in Portugal to show trainers / veterinarian shows (unfortunately or not, it cool that they are trying to show people the importance of training there dogs, but it had made "every cat and dog" think of themselves as a dog whisper, don't think the growing numbers of people getting bitten is a coincidence)...

I do not agree with ether of those examples, but what makes my method right and theirs or yours wrong? (or vice-versa), this is just my opinion, and I know it's an utopia, but I do believe that everyone should be able to train as they believe it's right (Flávio is going to kill me for saying this, the DIA program he is involve is all about equalize trainers and methods), IF they are not harming the dogs and getting results, what makes their methods wrong?
I've eared the talks about Milan hitting dogs, and if that is true it has to be proven and he as to be punish, but if not, it's not because of me not agreeing with him that I'm going to say he is wrong...

Hope I'm not offending anyone, just sharing my point of view...

"Milan´s greatest contribution to "modern dog ownership" is telling people that they need to educate their dogs, "
Very true susie...

There are appropriate methods, and there are inappropriate methods, some of his methods are the last.

What I don´t like are so called "scientologic" posts, not based on reality and common sense.

This is a quote out of the text:

" Free-ranging urban dogs spend the majority of their time either wandering alone or with a singular companion.[22] Groups larger than three dogs are rare - and when they do exist, they are not a ‘pack’ because they are fluid groupings of individuals rather than stable family units."

I guess the author never has been in countries with "wild dog packs" walking around... It´s not common in industrilized countries any more, because "we" tend to either spay/neuter, kill, or shelter these dogs before they are able to build up packs.

The author should take a look into not so well developed countries to see reality.

Forgot to mention children - abondened children tend to build "social packs" similar to dogs ( take a look at the street kids in 3. world countries ), it´s a matter of survival.

susie total agree with you , but what makes a method inappropriate?

Never seen Milan hitting, starving or mistreating a dog in any way (don't really thing that those silly "tchh" or the putting a dog in the ground are that aggressive).

One of the persons I have to thank all I know, had Rotweillers before I met him, he is a really skinny man, the rots weight twice his weight, and to control the "alpha male" he would literally sit on the dog, just to make the dog believe he was stronger than him, the dog belived him and did not defied him again... Don't consider that abuse, just strength showing... it's kind of the same as a tap in the but to a children...

I studied animal behaviour in university. A lot of what I studied was based on Konrad Lorenz. Now this article is trying to say everything that was taught was WRONG?

From Jane Goodall (chimps), to Diane Fossey (gorillas) to George Schaller (lions) ALL animals living in groups were shown to have an alpha male (or alpha pair). I agree, the structure is not as ridged as was believed earlier in studies of captive wolves. but it is THERE. If dogs don't have some sort of pack structure, they will be the ONLY social animal I've ever heard of that doesn't!

I also recall an incident reported by a man who was living in a country where feral dogs roamed the city in packs. He befriended this one particular dog, which began following him around. One day, it followed him out of its usual territory. It was attacked by a rival dog pack, and nearly killed.

I'd love to see the credentials of those who did these studies.

The comment section is interesting. There is one comment from someone who works in a training facility, helping to rehabilitate rescues. They've found all-positive training works fine with the more laid back, timid breeds, but that strong breeds like GSDs and rotties need to be shown correct behaviour by the use of corrections. And as anyone involved in Schutzhund can tell you, 'correction' is NOT a dirty word. Corrections do NOT have to be harsh or abusive.

I've owned a number of rescues over the years, and know that some of what people see as 'abuse' by Cesar is misunderstood. His so-called 'kicks' are actually gentle foot-taps to redirect the dog's attention, and break its focus on another dog or some object it has fixated on. It's the same as a collar correction when teaching heeling in schutzhund.

 

I watch the show because i love to watch everything about dogs. I don't believe i ever saw anything that is clearly cruelty to animals. I might not agree with the approach of a certain problem the same as i don't agree with any other trainers approach. And the five minute fix is not the main purpose of the show as we all know that does not happen in the real world. The more i know about dogs, the more i realize there is no single method to train all dogs.What i like about the Cesar method is the simplicity,his mantra's are easier to understand by clew less dog owners. Put it like this, there are many roads that lead to Rome. Cesar's method leads a newbie on the freeway following signs,while the positive training methods leads along scenic roads both reach their destination, but there is much more chance for a newbie to get lost and end up needing a GPS (trainer). Training dogs the so called positive method requires talent.Without talent people are better of following someone like Cesar. This girl is a natural.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dv_gOBi8Wpk. What most critics don't realize is that people are not as talented as they are.

It is also a sign of the times, it seems that I can't teach anything without someone pulling up a phone to verify on the internet and therefore missing the essence.

As for the scientific claim on this article,well there is a lot of controversial in it, typical when science try to explain nature.

I am not a fan and certainly not a follower, but I don't see his philosophy doing any harm.

 

I think every Cesar Milan hater is missing a big point, he i NOT training dogs, but mostly cleaning up the mess that bad training or lack of training are resposible for, if these dogs were trained properly they wouldnot end up with Ceasar

Now everybody with any knowledge about dog learning abilities will know that, in order to stop unwanted behaviour, that was allowed and encouraged for years can not be turned around by positive motivation only

Cesar is very good at reading dogs, recognizing the problem and fixing it, and he solved more problems than all the haters and positive goeroes all together ever will