Dog with prey drive cannot access drive during bitework - Page 2

I would roughly say that when your dog targets helper when he is passive it is insecurity of the dog, try to get bigger distance between the helper and the prey object by putting it on a thin trackingline or something like that, if the dog is on the bite the helper can stimulate the dog by gently pulling the line, and shortening the line session by session

if it is stronger dog targeting the helper when he is active, the helper should become passive and do the same as described above

first scenario will build confidence,
second will make the dog focus on prey more and less on helper

Thanks for the replies.

The actual scenario is that the helper/trainer stands in the center with a variety of sleeves and the dog handlers/dogs ( about 20 teams ) make a large circle around the helper. As the helper initiates the session by cracking the whip , most ( not all ) of the dogs begin to bark constantly. The helper approaches each dog cracking whip and sleeved arm. When he get close enough some of the dogs are hit on their feet with the thin leather whip, but it does not seem to bother them as they want the sleeve bad enough. My dog does not bark at the whip crack and seeing the helper in the center. She gets all worked up ( baring teeth with a very serious kind of ritual ) when the helper comes to her cracking the whip.When offered the sleeve she does not take it, she moves in for a lower bite. As the helper retreats she returns to my side and stand.

Stop training with that idiot ! Your first session with your girl and the fool is using a whip and hitting dogs feet! Sucks. You're better off NOT doing anything than 'training' with an idiot like that. Worst thing for a dog and especially a young dog that has natural suspicion of strangers. My opinion, probly going to catch crap about it, but using a whip first time with a helper is a crap helper....mithuna, not all dogs are made the same and cookie cutter, assembly line training is worse than no bite training.

Mithuna .. your female is not seeing the helper or the sleeve as a prey item at all ... she is trying to drive the helper away and whether he has a sleeve on or not has no bearing on her as she is not interested in the sleeve. The type of training you described with the helper surrounded by a circle of dogs is not what will help your dog. She needs the opposite situation with a helper coming toward you and her in a corner or enclosed area where there is no escape other than to drive the helper away and when the helper retreats she must go after him and not let him escape or she must bite him to stop his attack on her and on you if he does not retreat. I think she sees the sleeve as a toy and a game while she sees the helper as a threat to you and to her and she wants to protect you and drive him away. Actually your dog is doing exactly what a protection dog is supposed to do and that is go after the threat and force it away while ignoring the sleeve and the toy. It would be good to see if she will bite on a bite suit. In the case of biting sports using a sleeve the dog is taught to bite the sleeve to win the sleeve or the game but in real life the protection or police dog with some training is allowed to bite almost any body part to protect herself and her handler while repelling the attacker. Dogs do not work in a single drive during a training session, dog fight or contest. The dog may start in prey and then switch to defense, competition, or aggression as the pressure from the helper increases and then as the helper is defeated or runs away the dog may switch back to prey or competitive. This is why dog fights are so hard to break up. The dog that is losing is in defensive or competitive but will change into other drives as soon as he senses he is winning. If a human steps in to help the losing dog and separate the dogs the loser will become more aggressive as his drives change from defense and survival to offense and competition. Your female needs one on one time with a helper and you must make sure she knows she must fight and bite to win .. it could be she is putting on a show and she will behave differently when backed into a corner where she must fight to win. Biting sports like IPO seldom back a dog into a corner and that is why an IPO dog can never be counted on as a defensive protection dog without additional training.  What Joan said is correct and I would say at 15 months most dogs are not ready to go to war.  I have some Czech line dogs and they get very serious with biting at 18-24 months but will not be totally mature until 30 months to three years.

I would say to find a helper who works each dog individually, and can work a defence-over-prey dog. Even a dog whose dominant drive is defence, but also has prey, can be worked effectively and taught to target the sleeve. But this takes an experienced helper, and an owner who can recognize the "correct" way to work their dog.

Joanro you are too funny and absolutely correct. This is cookie cutter training. Like others have said find a helper that will train your dog individually. Now you may have to take a step back when it comes to training and introducing the dog to a helper by itself. You have to find a helper that is like the old school cartoon character Felix the cat. Felix had a magic bag of tricks he would reach into to help solve any problem. Experienced helpers have learned over the years to read a dog and try different techniques to get a a dog to grip and hold. Now your dog may take several sessions to feel comfortable enough to gain confidence and learn the game. But you might want to find and or visit a few different clubs to see how different training is done.

Here at 15 months

Omg! ^^^^^^ rotfl! Absolutely perfect response from your girl...high beams no less.

Most helpers today under fifty really don't have clue about working a dog in defense. If I see another helper cracking a whip when it serves no purpose I will puke, your dog does not sound like it has strong prey drive and at very least should always be worked alone by a trainer that reads what your dog is presenting and makes the appropriate actions to build something meaningful that has foundation.

Excellent post, Gustav !