got some sheep - Page 6

Hundmutter, when speaking of trials, are you going to enter your dog in the HGH or a herding trial?
You better know what your dog is trained to do before entering either one....THAT is a good example of why there is a difference in what either form of working sheep is called. Has absolutely Nothing to do with opinion...but in the world of the internet that's all that counts,, is opinion....facts are irrelevant.
If you would read the Frawley article I posted, perhaps you could understand.

As for 'the eye' that border collies use to control livestock, a person without experience with 'herding' dogs would not know what it looks like...its not something you can know until you've seen it in real life.  Gsd In General, do not have it. 

Dogs are born with a genetic window of physical and mental possibilities. Where they land in that window is dependent on their environment. Some behaviors are strongly related to genetics but can be diminished, altered or reinforced by environment. Dogs learn from their family group ( mother, sire, litter mates, and other relatives ). Dogs learn from other animals and other dogs outside their family group. In the case of dogs interacting with other animals outside their family group they learn the individual animal's habits and personalities of individuals given time and experience. Dogs learn from humans as they are taught rules and expected behaviors. In the case of working livestock dogs their abilities and behaviors are determined by genetics and on the job training from other dogs, humans, and the animals they are tasked with herding or tending. The Australian Kelpie is an example of a really great breed that fall between the smaller herding breeds ( Aussie and Border Collie ) and the GSD. The Kelpie is a larger and more physical dog but derives much of it's heritage from Collies. The Kelpie which is an old breed ( 1904 New Zealand I believe ), the original Malinois, and the original GSD of the same time period ( 1900 ) were probably cut from the same genetic cloth. The selection of the GSD after WWII for "sport" or "show" has done nothing but diminish the herding and tending abilities of the GSD although I have had GSD with "the eye" so the traits have not been lost perhaps just ignored.

HM says; "Probably the lack of access for most handlers to big open spaces and large flocks of sheep has as much to do with GSDs not being used, as whether the dogs would be able to do it."

That's the changing culture I of which I spoke, and why the trait is disappearing. Selecting breeding dogs for extreme high prey drive with a strong desire to bite, is counter to what a good herding dog needs....this I explained early on in this thred. It is the reason I believe the gsd has lost the ability to make good seeing eye dogs, for example, as they were used in the past. The breed through selection is not a shepherd dog anymore, as much as it is a high prey drive sporty dog.
The old addage, 'use it or lose it' applies. They can't maintain traits that are not a criteria for breeding.

Well Joan, as we don't actually have either of them in the UK that's a
question I could not answer. What we do have is Sheepdog Trials,
based on a format devised by the International Sheep Dog Society.
Much as described in my post, 5 or 8 sheep, worked to a time limit
and points, where the shepherd-contestant sends the dog (or dogs,
in Brace competition) to Fetch the sheep along a Drive path, through
various Gates (with no walls or fences attached to them, incidentally)
back & around the shepherd and into a Shedding Ring (which is just a
circle marked out with piles of sawdust) where one of them has to be
cleanly split out of the 'herd'; and is then promptly allowed back. The
round is finished when they are driven into a pen. These comps are
run on an InterRegional and InterNational (England/Scotland/Wales/
Ireland) basis. I do not know of any GSD that has ever been entered
in these very Border Collie / Working Sheepdog occasions; or what the
reaction would be if anyone tried. If one wants to do HGH we would go
to Germany. I do not know of details of anyone who actually has done
that, but then I do not claim to know everything. I certainly cannot think
of anybody who has been known to train their GSD to work sheep in
competition, in any style, in about the last 20 or 30 years here. But
sheep-working GSDs have and probably currently do exist here, just
that its in private hands for the usefulness to the owners and their own
satisfaction. But unless they specifically want to train their dog ISDS
style-ee, I doubt their dogs do the fancy work described; it is a highly
stylised version of herding, that's for sure.
I like to think that if I was in the States and wanted to do either Tending
or Herding classes / contests, I would be able to read a clear set of Rules
for either. and train accordingly ?
As to "eye", the first breed I ever got 'involved' with was the Black&White
Things; my remark about our GSDs and the goats was flippant, hence the
"Seriously though" which followed !

Again, there is gathering herding and tending herding. I explained the latter. I am sorry, joanro, tending herding entails shedding (einpferchen und auspferchen) as I explained before. You don't have to address tending herding.
I am off, I provided the information, and people can use it or not. It's a beautiful day outside!

Hm, the point is not that there are no trials, the point is where the breed is due to selection. Examples of selection...which pup would you want for any job the breed has been known for?

 

Mod edit, removed photos of 2 puppies which belong to other people, if author of post would like to post links then that is fine, thank you. mrdarcy (mod)

I'd take the first one.

Certainly would not decide on the basis of a photograph,
either side of the Pond.

Aw geez, now you're complicating the question, Hundmutter. I think you are supposed to pick just by looking at the dog's expression. I like the way the first one tilts head, makes him look intelligent, don't ya think? And I love his color too. He reminds me of my first GSD.

I hope those 2 puppy photos are yours or you have permission to use the first one taken from a classified here.