got some sheep - Page 10

Curious, the mal was reborn as I understand it by selecting redundant farm dogs and making up a bite sport for them.

I have no proof of this just what I heard some ringers say.

What Allan says about his GSDs is interesting; I wasn't only asking about
BC experiences, if that was all the input I wanted I would have moved to the
BC Forum. Thanks for reminding us VK re the success of BCs at IPO and
Shutzhund, I know a lot of BC people have had rapid success at hundsport
with their collies; yes that may be a wee bit embarrassing, but all the Working
people I ever discussed it with fell back on the GSDs superior size - and there-
fore better use as a deterrent / manstopper ! ; )

Belgian Shepherd Dogs is a whole new slant ! Do any of them display "eye" ?

Sadly I see things have not changed.

OP, great job on your dog.

HM I have only seen a few Belgians on sheep, they ran like crazy splitting the sheep every which way, was chaos....dogs had a good time.

A lot of sheep for rent herding instructors here ban GSD and Belgians.

Fawndallas you are partially correct about nothing changing, like members completely changing their original postings, as is the case here. Says a lot about that member don't ya think?, silly though as we have the original wording, lol.

Herding is near to my heart and I have talked to many shepherds who own different breeds. I think we have to keep a few things in mind....

Border collies were bred when shepherds turned sheep loose in a large fenced in area. The collies were required to gather up the sheep and bring them to the fenced in pasture in morning and then gather up sheep and bring them to the shepherd. This gathering behavior also was conducive to separating out certain animals. The collies were not expected to protect the sheep from predators. Neither the shepherd or herding dog stayed on site as the sheep where in fenced areas. Thus, most shepherds had a livestock guardian dog for that job separate from the herding dog. The collies were also not expected to protect the shepherd as the location was stable with no traveling and the shepherd was working on his/her farm.

Conversely, in the area where the GSD herder existed, there were no established farms with large fenced in areas. The shepherd had to move the flock to grazing. Since there were no fences, the shepherds required the dogs to be "moving fencing" to keep sheep where they were supposed to be. Unlike the collies, the dogs were expected to also protect the flock from threat. And, unlike collies, the GSD was expected to protect the shepherd during traveling. As both the dogs and shepherd remained with the sheep.

Thus, these two herding breeds evolved for two separate circumstances and both are correct and neither is better than the other.

Sarah

By the time the GSD was started as a herding breed there were few large predators in Germany. The German's were quite well armed and large predators were eliminated in all but the most forested regions. Small and medium sized scattered fields of a few hectares with no fences were the reason for living fences not protection from large predators. The original GSD was not developed as a biting dog for sheep herding or sports. By 1920 when the GSD closed the breed books in Germany sheep herding in Europe was all but gone due industrialization and sheep herding going to lower production cost countries with cheaper land and more advantageous pasture conditions. The schutzhund and biting work was developed as a substitute for real herding. Von Stephanitz was born 1864 in Dresden, Kingdom of Saxony, into German nobility, Stephanitz was a career cavalry officer and spent some time serving at the Veterinary College in Berlin.  Von Stephanitz was reared and was involved with animals during a period in which sheep numbers in Germany were at historical highs ( 1860-1890).  The geezers involved in developing the GSD as a recognized herding breed were all born and had lived during times of plentiful sheep numbers but failed to recognize that industrialization of Germany and globalization of sheep to New Zealand and Australia would make sheep production in Germany uneconomical.  Cars killed off the horses after WWII and affluence during the post war period from 1960 forward made meat from fowls, cattle and swine more important than mutton in Germany. Livestock numbers in Germany for the last 200 years below.

 

The first wild bear to roam Germany in over 170 years has apparently left the country, and just in time. Authorities in the German state of Bavaria were prepared to capture or possibly shoot the animal.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/05/060523-bear-germany.html

Officially, the “Tiger of Sabrodt” was the last wolf killed in Germany, in 1904, but they’d been considered extinct in the country since before the original unification of Germany in 1871.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/world/article24763777.html

When you say "When the GSD was started as a herding breed ..." aren't you
overlooking the fact that the various dogs used to 'start' the breed were of
types which had already been used for herding sheep for some length of
time ?

Thanks Sarah, put like that the differences are clarified. Was forgetting that
you are right, there would have been more enfenced land, in the UK at
least, when sheep started to become a 'main crop'; cf Enclosure periods
of our history, when Scottish and Welsh peasants / villagers were cleared
off their home lands as huge areas were bought up and turned over to the
new large-scale sheep farming.

Some quotes from this thread that show utter ignorance about tending herding:

“not the tending style with huge flocks standing in a bunch grazing.”

“take those same gsd and compete against border collies . gsd walk circles in a kennel, getting them to akc style "tend" is NOT herding, its tending.”

“A dog can't herd if he's not allowed to interact and enter that border.:-)”

“One dog may have the temp for tending but not herding, as the degree of control is much greater in herding.”

“GSD folk talk about their dogs disciplining tough sheep, good dogs dominate sheep and cattle without any biting, barking or motion, weak dogs have to bite.”

If people don't know about tending herding, that's fine, we all have only specks of knowledge in a sea of ignorance, but it might be advisable to refrain from making statements based on ignorance of the topic. Btw, Mr Ed Frawley of Leerburg is not an authority on tending herding. And yes, some of us do have practical experience. If you want to see tending herding dogs moving flocks of a thousand sheep, you still can do so in Germany.

To reserve the term 'herding' to only one style of herding, the gathering style (border collies), is anglocentric. By difference, in Germany, herding (hüten) is tending herding b/c that is the style of herding practiced there. I explained why in previous posts. Two different styles of herding sheep, both require sound dogs but of different type. And sheep aren't sheep, moving sheep in a large herd take different measures than sheep in a small flock. The 'eye' is useful especially in sheep gathering herding trials, but it would be disastrous in controlling a huge moving flock. If you control five sheep in pasture land it's very different from controlling hundreds along agricultural fields and roads with traffic.

There are very good reason why good breeders of clear headed GSDs with a good balance between civil and prey turn to old herding lines. They have discernment, courage, and hardness. The 'old blood' is precious. Yes, tending herding GSDs.

AKC tending herding was mentioned and disparaged in this thread. I don't partake in it but read their regulations, and met a few people and their dogs who are part of it. It is a sport, and the flocks are very small, you can look up the numbers in their regulations, maybe 20, I don't remember, but certainly more than five. While it shouldn't be confused with working herding tending, I view it as one way to to do at least something, and something more feasible for most, with one's GSD, that is related to the GSD as a herding dog. Any attempt to do something more feasible for most people sounds positive to me, even if it is not the 'real' thing. I think it's called C course herding within the AKC, and it doesn't earn the more difficult HGH title. But, hey, does it have to? It has no pretense to be more than it is. And it is something.

Btw, one focus of my pedigree research here are the pedigrees of the 'old blood', the herding lines, incl. the German tending herding trial champions. Lots to be done still.

@vk - not so different from the behaviour of unsupervised collies
if they get out and go do some sheep worrying !