What will an IPO/Schutzund dog if the Sleeve is taken out of the picture? - Page 3

^ duke this is what i don't get and hope you will explain; people that seem anti-sport and promote "real" dogs never "really" explain what they mean. eg;  if a sport dog is trained to see body parts as a prey item and they are trained to withstand crazy pressure then why aren't they as real as real dogs and what the actual F is the difference.

me thinks it is time to stop treating the anti-sport crowd like special school students and expect more from them to define what they mean and show it with "real" examples, while they are at it can the owners of "real" dogs show the "real" pedigrees and demonstrate how they are distinctly different from the not real high performers in sport.

 

as always videos of real dogs welcome, show us what you are talking about instead of endless snark about how not real sport dogs are.

'And I've never heard of Training  a dog to be  "Safe On The Sleeve.'
Me either. What I said was, 'MOST sport dogs are trained to be 'safe' and only bite the sleeve.' How many b/r dogs are trained to bite a hidden sleeve or center mass? Now, what's the ratio of b/r dogs that Have to be titled in IPO cmpaired to WL dogs that are titled? On the other hand, I'd like to see the helper ( no bite suit) who would do an escape bite with a dog that's never been trained to target the sleeve.

'he was used as example dog on a seminair of famous german trainer to show how they teach prey dogs to see the helpers body as prey, he was definately the wrong dog for this because he almost ripped him to pieces'

Op, there's one answer with one dog. And here's you another answer with a different dog;  " I have decoyed him, when I slip the sleeve he carries it, I feel safe "

joan It is ot about pedigrees but about dogs, but I must say i sa some Fado lutter offspring in IPO port that where not on their best place there

 

the difference Joan is simple it is about motivation of the dog to engage in the fight, the WHY , if the dog is there to win prey he will only bite those things he is trainedto see as prey, so there is room for error 

I saw a policedog competition not to long ago with a bunch of nice prey malinois being confronted ith non trained  situations

first one was a helper in buitesuit with no arms on it, most dogs NO bite at all, big confusion

second one a helper holding a 6 feet flag inbetween im and the dogs, there was a grad total of one dog that went trough and got bite

bottom line trained behaviour will screw you when you encounter UNtrained situatons

 

'the difference Joan is simple it is about motivation of the dog to engage in the fight, the WHY , if the dog is there to win prey he will only bite those things he is trainedto see as prey, so there is room for error'
Duke, you are 'preaching to the choir'....I know all that, but I didn't see anyone Asking WHY. I'm not as stupid about dogs as you seem to assume. I may not be real articulate, and a simple statement made by me to answer the op, as in the dogs are trained to target the sleeve, without expounding on it, is taken as lack of knowledge. So a guy comes on here, switch my words, others jump on the twisted phrase and go all out to defend their game that they feel is being disparaged. Its no wonder so many people need to defend their sport and talk about how 'real' it is and how 'real' their dogs are....don't let some GIRL say anything they misconstrue as disparaging of their weekend warrior reenactments as anything but real!

And duke, who the f said anything about Pedigrees ?! You hung up on some shit, man!

my bad, questions about pedigree etc were asked by VK on last page

'first one was a helper in buitesuit with no arms on it, most dogs NO bite at all, big confusion

second one a helper holding a 6 feet flag inbetween im and the dogs, there was a grad total of one dog that went trough and got bite

bottom line trained behaviour will screw you when you encounter UNtrained situatons'

Duke, that is exactly why I said I'd like to see a helper, with no bite suit, give an escape bite to a dog NOT trained to Target the sleeve .....thank you for supporting the point I was TRYING to make. BTW, duke, Drago's owner is on this thred, at least lurking, so here's you opportunity to tell him what you told me about the grandsire of my 'knpv dog' puppy. Maybe a good opportunity for you to get the facts about the dog first hand.

not interested in your puppys grandsire, thatwas a whole different discussion  thats got nothing to do with this topic

 

and I didnot even mention Drago there, only referred to dogs in a KNPV pedigree

There is nothing real about biting an exposed sleeve worn on an arm.  That's why the police use hidden sleeves for training.  Even hidden sleeves are apparent to the dog.  The dog isn't stupid and most IPO dogs unless trained to bite a hidden sleeve or a leg sleeve or bite suit will go for the sleeve as a target if the helper throws it on the ground while running and the dog has a choice between chasing the sleeve or the helper without a sleeve.  This fact is that this is why making a sleeve biter totally fascinated with owning the sleeve is a stupid exercise used by many IPO helpers since the dog becomes totally dedicated to getting the sleeve and the helper is just what holds the sleeve for the bite and the dog starts to ignore the helper as a threat to him or her.  The dog realizes that the sleeve and the presentation is a game although some IPO enthusiasts fail to understand that their own sport is a game to the dog.  Put another way .. an IPO dog without further training than what IPO gives will never be a police dog as police dogs need to bite legs, shoulders, arms, and wherever they can gain maximum control with least danger to the dog while bringing down or subduing a suspect individual.   Very often in IPO bite training the dog must bite and remain calm so that the act of biting is the reward and releases tension ( especially when the dog gets the sleeve as a reward ).  In police work the dog makes the bite and the fight is more often ongoing with no release until the suspect or target is released by the dog ( usually against the dog's will ) so the police dog is still ready to fight and bite even when the fight is over while the win of the sleeve in IPO releases tension on the IPO dog.