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by Hundmutter on 11 February 2014 - 21:02
Kevin, I'm sure Frank knows his 'onions' about the procedures;
but some of what has apparently happened really ought to
have rung some alarm bells with other breeders in her region.
Even if only on a 'no smoke without fire' level. It is hard to see
quite what 'requisite documentation' could prove or disprove on
some of the allegations, e.g. re involvement with Tim Helser;
or the state of Molly's 'rescue' kennels / the bitch in question, when
she filmed her to show what an unapproachable crackpot she was
(and it just turned out she was missing her previous owner and reacting
badly to kennel life). There is considerable video in each of those two
cases, but because it is on PDB, it sounds as though USCA would
not be prepared to look at it ? Different just from written posts giving
individual opinions, from people who may, as you say, be drawing the
wrong conclusions through lack of information.
There is almost always an element of "he said / she said" about a
lot of cases where breeders are seen or thought or even just suspected
of crossing over the lines - but surely one of the things anyone holding
the office of Breed Warden should be is beyond reproach in dog matters?
Any complaints system which demands 'absolute proof or nothing' from
the start sounds like a system with a great big glaring hole in it...Protection
is one thing; protectionism is another.
but some of what has apparently happened really ought to
have rung some alarm bells with other breeders in her region.
Even if only on a 'no smoke without fire' level. It is hard to see
quite what 'requisite documentation' could prove or disprove on
some of the allegations, e.g. re involvement with Tim Helser;
or the state of Molly's 'rescue' kennels / the bitch in question, when
she filmed her to show what an unapproachable crackpot she was
(and it just turned out she was missing her previous owner and reacting
badly to kennel life). There is considerable video in each of those two
cases, but because it is on PDB, it sounds as though USCA would
not be prepared to look at it ? Different just from written posts giving
individual opinions, from people who may, as you say, be drawing the
wrong conclusions through lack of information.
There is almost always an element of "he said / she said" about a
lot of cases where breeders are seen or thought or even just suspected
of crossing over the lines - but surely one of the things anyone holding
the office of Breed Warden should be is beyond reproach in dog matters?
Any complaints system which demands 'absolute proof or nothing' from
the start sounds like a system with a great big glaring hole in it...Protection
is one thing; protectionism is another.
by Kevin Nance on 11 February 2014 - 22:02
Hundmutter,
Youve clearly got it all figured out...
Thank you for the insightful and knowledgeable reply.
Kevin
Youve clearly got it all figured out...
Thank you for the insightful and knowledgeable reply.
Kevin
by northwoodsGSD on 11 February 2014 - 23:02
a direct copy of a post Tracy made(different site) in regards to this. Explains a bit more.
.....Well for all that know me well know I have been goin through a lawsuit in my dog trace and his papers and xrays and dm...I purchased a dog from molly graf in newville pa and I gotta warn to all beware of her and her selling of reg dogs. .if she can not beat u in court make sure u have ur paperwork from her and its all correct...she went to ths level of harassing my breeders and went to akc and TRYED to have him a limited breeding which he was sold as full registration...molly graf and Chris ross are nomore than crooks and jelious ppl who do not like to win amx akc saw the truth on all there lies as I provide all the truth and facts to prevent this.my other suite with her is still opem but honestly dont see any way of her winning. ..so to all who wants to inquire on molly graf or enchulft shepherd in newville ....beware anx any questions please pm me and ill give u facts and only facts...and I am posting this on buyers beware of bad breeders page also...she is dishonest in every way and needs exposed.....
.....Well for all that know me well know I have been goin through a lawsuit in my dog trace and his papers and xrays and dm...I purchased a dog from molly graf in newville pa and I gotta warn to all beware of her and her selling of reg dogs. .if she can not beat u in court make sure u have ur paperwork from her and its all correct...she went to ths level of harassing my breeders and went to akc and TRYED to have him a limited breeding which he was sold as full registration...molly graf and Chris ross are nomore than crooks and jelious ppl who do not like to win amx akc saw the truth on all there lies as I provide all the truth and facts to prevent this.my other suite with her is still opem but honestly dont see any way of her winning. ..so to all who wants to inquire on molly graf or enchulft shepherd in newville ....beware anx any questions please pm me and ill give u facts and only facts...and I am posting this on buyers beware of bad breeders page also...she is dishonest in every way and needs exposed.....
by Jenni78 on 11 February 2014 - 23:02
Still don't get it. Pretty hard to read.
by afwark15 on 12 February 2014 - 04:02
This is the story- Molly sold a dog to Tracy. Dog was not neutered.
The dog belonged to a third party who happened to be the breeder.(Third party asked Molly to sell this dog for her while she was across the country). Third party asked Molly to put in sale contract that breeding rights would remain for the breeder.
So, dog sells to Tracy. She is to make payments for said dog. She does not- all the while not having any contact with Molly about why payments were not being made. Molly withheld papers since there was a breech in the contract- payments not made.
Long story short, Tracy sued Molly for loss of monies she incurred bc she was not able to breed her dog without papers...aka 18,000 in losses....? Not sure where that amount comes from. Tracy told judge she missed out on monies from puppies- even though everyone knows the stud owner does not get money from puppies, only a stud fee.
Anyway, Tracy is breeding her untitled dog with no hip/ elbow certs to back yard breeders and is bragging about how she is going to buy a female and breed more puppies... Oh goodie!
All anyone has to do is look up Tracy's business- equine fx, on ripoff report.
Not good people-
Working dog people who are trying to better the breed need to stick together. It is a very small pack of us. Tracy is clearly in it for the money, not because she loves the German Shepherd.
As a side note- I read someone say Molly breeding untitled dogs...?? I have never known that to be the case. I am pretty sure that she is one of the very few breeders in this country who only ever breeds titled dogs. I was titling a dog for her for breeding- even though the dog could have passed an IPO1 routine, Molly paid me for the training, and put the dog in a pet home bc the dog lacked the temperament that Molly looks for in a female for breeding.
And as far as her dealings with Helser... Molly admits she made a mistake with that. She, as well as many others know he is bad news.
The dog belonged to a third party who happened to be the breeder.(Third party asked Molly to sell this dog for her while she was across the country). Third party asked Molly to put in sale contract that breeding rights would remain for the breeder.
So, dog sells to Tracy. She is to make payments for said dog. She does not- all the while not having any contact with Molly about why payments were not being made. Molly withheld papers since there was a breech in the contract- payments not made.
Long story short, Tracy sued Molly for loss of monies she incurred bc she was not able to breed her dog without papers...aka 18,000 in losses....? Not sure where that amount comes from. Tracy told judge she missed out on monies from puppies- even though everyone knows the stud owner does not get money from puppies, only a stud fee.
Anyway, Tracy is breeding her untitled dog with no hip/ elbow certs to back yard breeders and is bragging about how she is going to buy a female and breed more puppies... Oh goodie!
All anyone has to do is look up Tracy's business- equine fx, on ripoff report.
Not good people-
Working dog people who are trying to better the breed need to stick together. It is a very small pack of us. Tracy is clearly in it for the money, not because she loves the German Shepherd.
As a side note- I read someone say Molly breeding untitled dogs...?? I have never known that to be the case. I am pretty sure that she is one of the very few breeders in this country who only ever breeds titled dogs. I was titling a dog for her for breeding- even though the dog could have passed an IPO1 routine, Molly paid me for the training, and put the dog in a pet home bc the dog lacked the temperament that Molly looks for in a female for breeding.
And as far as her dealings with Helser... Molly admits she made a mistake with that. She, as well as many others know he is bad news.
by kitkat3478 on 12 February 2014 - 11:02
So, I guess this person totally BS'ed the judge in this case,,,
And, if you go back to the thread about Molly stealing Shelly's dog, and the litter of unborn pups....you know, the ones she was dropping off at the dog pound..(her words, not mine),
when she bred Shellys untitled dog, again her words, not mine, she held the dog down to be bred because the dog would not stand...
This, while in the pisition of breed warden.
And no, I don 't care for Molly.
And, if you go back to the thread about Molly stealing Shelly's dog, and the litter of unborn pups....you know, the ones she was dropping off at the dog pound..(her words, not mine),
when she bred Shellys untitled dog, again her words, not mine, she held the dog down to be bred because the dog would not stand...
This, while in the pisition of breed warden.
And no, I don 't care for Molly.
by northwoodsGSD on 12 February 2014 - 12:02
I don't have a dog in this fight, but Afwark that is only your side of the story.
I am wondering if this mystery breeder/owner is Chris Ross?
I am wondering if this mystery breeder/owner is Chris Ross?
by Hundmutter on 12 February 2014 - 13:02
Yes there are at least two sides to all of these stories -
which is exactly why a proper enquiry / complaints
investigation ought to be carried out. If Molly is in the
right she should be able - and have the opportunity to -
put her side to the critiscisms, publicly. Then no one
would be acting as internet judge&jury. If she cannot
justify her actions, she should have to stand down as
Breed Warden.
which is exactly why a proper enquiry / complaints
investigation ought to be carried out. If Molly is in the
right she should be able - and have the opportunity to -
put her side to the critiscisms, publicly. Then no one
would be acting as internet judge&jury. If she cannot
justify her actions, she should have to stand down as
Breed Warden.
by Unknown on 12 February 2014 - 13:02
Hundmutter said "Any complaints system which demands 'absolute proof or nothing' from
the start sounds like a system with a great big glaring hole in it...Protection
is one thing; protectionism is another."
I'm not sure where you come up with this statement. Please point to where I or anyone else said anything like this. Who besides you said it is absoluet proof or nothing?
What I said is someone must file charges, USCA DOES NOT MONITOR PDB (or anyother internet message board sites). The officers of USCA are volunteers and have full time jobs, train their dogs and are way to busy to chase down every time someone posts something on the internet about 1 of our 4000 members.
If you feel strongly that she has done something wrong, then gather informartion and file charges. If they are sustained (not proved beyond a doubt, but sustained) then I'm sure there would be action taken.
I am surprised you think that USCA should react to every internet bickering situation. I personally saw a big thread on this database about a person in my region and the real story was NOT EVEN CLOSE to what the person posting here portrayed it to be.
the start sounds like a system with a great big glaring hole in it...Protection
is one thing; protectionism is another."
I'm not sure where you come up with this statement. Please point to where I or anyone else said anything like this. Who besides you said it is absoluet proof or nothing?
What I said is someone must file charges, USCA DOES NOT MONITOR PDB (or anyother internet message board sites). The officers of USCA are volunteers and have full time jobs, train their dogs and are way to busy to chase down every time someone posts something on the internet about 1 of our 4000 members.
If you feel strongly that she has done something wrong, then gather informartion and file charges. If they are sustained (not proved beyond a doubt, but sustained) then I'm sure there would be action taken.
I am surprised you think that USCA should react to every internet bickering situation. I personally saw a big thread on this database about a person in my region and the real story was NOT EVEN CLOSE to what the person posting here portrayed it to be.
by beetree on 12 February 2014 - 14:02
Unknown,
Doesn't someone have to be a member of the organization of which Molly is a Breed Warden, in order to file any such BOI charges? I don't think Hundmutter would qualify, then.
I think Hundmutter is referring to the fact that no one in the organizaion ever puts together the neverending string of court issues that engage this breeder, for one reason or another. Apparently the parties that show up time and again on the PDB, are experts at lessons learned by operating within the court system. That resolutions are much easier to accomplish that way, than what you suggest.
Doesn't someone have to be a member of the organization of which Molly is a Breed Warden, in order to file any such BOI charges? I don't think Hundmutter would qualify, then.
I think Hundmutter is referring to the fact that no one in the organizaion ever puts together the neverending string of court issues that engage this breeder, for one reason or another. Apparently the parties that show up time and again on the PDB, are experts at lessons learned by operating within the court system. That resolutions are much easier to accomplish that way, than what you suggest.
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