Military dogs: GSD vs. Belg Mal vs. Dutch Shep - Page 5

But you can see the defensive attitude of today's experts that play the game and understand how this came about. I know many many supposedly top sport breeders that base all their breedings on whether they can showcase the male they bred too. They could have a police dog in town or a dog next dog that is a better breeding fit and yet they would never make the breeding because of perception and their status in these dog circles. Oh some will say they would breed to a good police dog if they could find one.....they NEVER find one....trust me. This elitest approach has damaged the breed also for working. 

IMO,...In breeding, I will select for extreme temperament/courage, drive, alertness/reactiveness, energy level/liveliness, and sound structure that is naturally or genetically built in them.  Behavior is an inheritable additive trait, the more that you are selecting towards these standards, the more they will become intensified in every generation.  Physical structure is also inheritable, selecting towards good structure will produce good structured families in future generations.  In the offsprings, training and titling is the next step, to hone or channel, and certify these built-in qualities to a specific purpose or purposes of the breed, but you don't have to.  But in our modern world, police will not use an untrained and uncertified dog, but herders don't need certification.

Training and titling will not pass in the sperm!

no training or titling? I pass on the sperm

Oops! Mistake post..........

breedworthiness of an animal is not predetermined based on title of the parents, especially if that title is awarded by the judges, which of course is based on their own opinions.  Maybe if the title is based on the precise measurement of each individual's capabilities as in racing, and who can jump the highest or longest, you will have an edge, but still no guarantee.  The prepotency of the breeding stocks can only be determined thru progeny testing, meaning the end result.  A superior specimen of a breed will sometimes produce mediocre offsprings, while his lesser siblings will produce superior offsprings than his, even in carefully linebred animals.  These are facts of nature.

@gsd student you say no trainning or title you pass on the sperm,mabey you schould consider go testing the male yourself, a lot of "high in trial dog's" or Va sch3 dogs will be a big dissapointment when you take them out of their program or of the field
quality of a male/female you can't messure from a piece of paper and the day's that sport and i do mean any sport is a true test of the dog is long gone ask any older tophandler all sports have been made softer so titles don't mean anything anymore.
what doesn't mean that servicedogs are better, lot of them couldn't make it on a top competition although they are super at their work, selecting a male you do on bases of bloodlines and quality's of your own female but to do so you have to get rid of your pink goggles when you look at your own female.
luc vansteenbrugge's first advice to me was more important than securing the quality's of your female is controling/improving her schortcommings of course this is a lot harder to do and let's be honest a paper trial result doesn't say if a certain male has the drive to teach him controlled civil agression in extreme situations like riots,barfights etc, neither as cleaning up nightclubs gives you any guarantee of good sleevegrips, fast retrieves etc on a sportsfield
​luc never bred dogs according to drives,titles etc he bred malinois towards mental stability in all situations, so did a lot of ancient breeders drives came only after that
stability for him means, possesing the capebility  to TEACH them things like civil agression not all dogs can and the dogs who show it naturally always have nerve issues whitch will show later on in breeding results
stable behaviour is not the same as social behaviour, although it's a thin (trainned) line
a stable dog has no fear,no agression,no nervous issues and behaves himself the same everywere he comes, at home,trainningfield,street etc the drives he posses or trainning he had make the diffrence in the behaviour itself.
whitch for him means a stable dog that's not trainned towards civil agression will be a social dog,
everytime i say this a whole lot of people/breeders disagree, everybody has the right to their own opinion but untill somebody can prove that it's wrong by producing consistantly better offspring over more generations than luc did mabey all breeders who produce lesser dog's than he did should try to follow his view about selecting breedingstock females and studmales
he's kennelname was des deux pottois, do some research about he's breeding results and check howmany of today's breeders still found their "breedingprograms" on his lifework 
 

Lol....lotta different ways to look at things, the closer you are to the situation the more you understand,jmo.

kyto; thank you! your advice is great. One idea, go test the dog yourself is huge. I do not believe in breeding paper to paper, you only get paper tigers, not true GSD. Every test should have a proof. If you can not work the dog yourself go watch another trainer/helper/ agitator, armboy work the dog. Involvement in the breed other than the involvement which require reading glasses will further OUR cause. One passed test might be a fluke. How better to  first get involved than thru a working club? You must learn to tell the difference from well trained performances and genetic worth. You must learn the difference from poorly trained flawed performances and genetic worth. You must learn to tell the ''shepherds'' from the'' sheep'' from the'' wolves'' from the'' wolves in sheep clothing'' Where did you meet such people and their dogs? When I sought teachers and mentors the police trainers kept me at arms length. I do not blame the police K9s for their distance because their job is difficult enough without the exposure of a novice and their beginners needs. Thru training clubs though I learned enough to now have a contribution [ positive] to many K9 teams. Do not throw the seed away with the shaft. If I count the number of false profits I have met over the years, I only waste my time. I am happy to have met many top people from many ''walks'', who teach me more and more about the GSD. Do not hinder the process in any of our sport-breed- working friends. There is more than one path and not everyone starts at the same place nor will be able to get to the lofty of goal of breeding working dogs. A journey of a thousand miles starts with the first step.

a pro tennis champ married to a pro tennis champ is not a guarantee to produce champions, even if you train them since childhood.  There is a wide range of possibilities....from all of them will be champions------------to none of them will become a champion.  These applies to all venues from entertainers to sports people to businessmen, and etc.  Four out of five successful businessmen have no  title in business and some are even high school dropouts.  Ninety percent of people with business titles from the most prestigious universities have no businesses of their own, they are just hired to be a part of the team to run the businesses of untitled businessmen.  And to top all of these, universities will award an Honorary Degree to someone very successful in his endeavor, an honor not earned in that school thru academics.  Just a marketing ploy maybe to attach or associate someone' big name to the prestige of their university.

Common sense will guide us to breed from good, very good, to excellent specimens of the breed which includes everything from physical to behavioral soundness, a true ambassador of the breed.  But the outcome will still be variation from very good to very bad, all very good, and all very bad.