OFA Fair X-Ray - Page 3

Prager I never suggested that xrays should not be sent to OFA, the SV, a radiologist, etc. I said and have been saying here for years, don't base breeding decisions soley based on ratings. Many times ratings are the results of the quality of the film, the skill of the people who do the xray and whether or not the dog is sedated to the point of relaxation.  Pay more attention to siblings, parents, second and third degree relatives and their production records. Only breed normals to normals, think very hard before using an NZ or a dog that hasn't been evaluated by a recognized organization.

Posting hip xrays here generally results in a plethora of opinions, many of which do not agree. One recent hip xray here was rated anywhere from an excellent A1 to a fair, fast normal. Frankly some of the remarks about that xray left me scratching my head wondering if we were seeing the same film. Breeders can't depend on people like  you and me to have the final say on a hip xray, they need to ask an expert of their choosing. I agree that it certainly does behoove every breeder to learn what is and what is not a normal hip for the breed and age of the dog. However they need to put in a lot of time and effort to learn that and need to have a qualified professional to teach them. The alternative is to use a vet who knows how to correctly position a dog and how to read that film.

My Mag-pie just got ofa excellent and she is a product of ofa fair parents

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/forum.read?mnr=716276-xray-opinions-please

Sure, happens all the time. Been there myself. I'll bet both sides of the pedigree have a good record for producing normal hips. It's in the genes, baby.

 Blitzen
Can you explain what it means. 
when  you say :Personally I don't put a lot of emphasis on OFA ratings anymore. Then what do you put the emphasis on? Why to even OFA hips  then if you put only little emphasis on it. Especially when you then say: think very hard before using an NZ or a dog that hasn't been evaluated by a recognized organization. So you are not " putting emphasis on OFA" or are you" thinking hard if the dog is not evaluated by it"... ?!" Either OFA is important or it is not,... You can not have it both ways. 
 
Or when  you say again  :  don't base breeding decisions soley based on ratings of OFA and SV. Then what do you based in on? Elsewhere you are saying : Breeders can't depend on people like  you and me to have the final say on a hip xray, they need to ask an expert of their choosing.  Well if OFA  are not experts who is? 

What is Normal ?  You saying breeding normal to normal?  Do you mean OFA  excellent, good  and fair as normal ?  Or normal as in SV : Normal, fast normal and noch zugelassen? 

If you say: Breeders can't depend on people like  you and me to have the final say on a hip xray, they need to ask an expert of their choosing. Then does that not contradict  directly with your first statement Personally I don't put a lot of emphasis on OFA ratings anymore.
Your statements are very contradictory and confusing. Your statements are akin to Sibylline oracles which also could mean anything. You can do what ever you want of course ,   but  I am just pointing it out  for the sake of clarity that you need to choose your words better.   I do not necessarily disagree with your points which I need to guess though since they are so muddled. 


Prager Hans
 

SMH....I remember the Thread....I was a villain too! Anyway, those are good hips for working and breeding as far as the structure is concerned......but you must also consider family of parentage and siblings in equation whether it is OFA fair, good, or excellent. There are dogs with OFA EX hips that I would never breed to because of hips in family or siblings. 

Already asked and answered, Prager, scroll 5 posts up. My opinions are NOT muddled, it's you who's confused. I thought I was pretty clear when I said "IMO sibling, parent, and grandparent status and production history is far more important in the long run than OFA and SV ratings"

And "Personally I don't put a lot of emphasis on OFA ratings anymore. I had 2 dogs fail with milds that got goods with  better xrays taken 2 months later. (Litter mates, both xrays read the same day and rejected the same day by OFA; both xraying vets said - no way). One of my females got an A1 at 24 months and an OFA borderline with a copy of the same xray. 6 months later she was OFA rated as good. I've seen more than one fair get a good and even an excellent with a different xray.  I used a fair male with a good dam, 7 puppies, 3 goods, 4 excellents. I'm not convinced the SV does a much  better job plus one only gets the benefit of one reader and they don't allow a resubmission of an xray to try for a better rating. SV's evaluation is final - no challenges allowed."

Ratings and clearances are 2 different things. That's where you have tripped up. The rating indicates the reader's ranking of a specific hip xray compared to the breed average; the clearance indicates the reader's opinion of whether or not the hips in question fall within the normal range. Ergo breeding normal x normal means exactly that - breeding dogs that have been certified as normal period. fair, good excellent, A1, A2, maybe a fast normal depending. It doesn't matter much to me as long as there is a strong and verifiable history of normal hips and normal hip production . Personally I would probably not breed a dog rated NZ or buy a puppy out of an NZ parent unless I could first see the xray and verify the family history.

How do YOU determine normal  hip status on the dogs you broker or the parents of the puppies you import and sell here? How do YOU factor the rating into your breeding decisions?  Do YOU use a registry? Do YOU think it's OK to breed a dog without first xraying as long as it has functional hips?  Do YOU think it's ok to use a dog that won't get a hip clearance (from any organization) as long as it has functional hips? Do  YOU provide copies of hip xrays ad/or written guarantees to the buyers of  your adult imports? What is  your SOP if you broker a puppy to the US and that puppy ends up with crippling HD? How many times have you seen crippling HD out of dogs you brokered here out of certifed normal parents?






 

So many villains, so little time  BTW villain is synonymous to antagonist
 

Blitzen what I was commenting on was that you said that you will SV or OFA certify hips of  dogs. Then you are mentioning "Normal hips". According to OFA "Normal" hips are in categories of  : Excellent , Good, Fair. according to SV normal hips are described as Normal, fast normal, noch zugelassen. The problem is that fast normal and noch zugelassen is according to OFA  Borderline and moderate dysplasia. Thus  I was only pointing to how confusing your statements are since fast normal and noch zugelasesen are not "normal" according to OFA. 
http://www.offa.org/hd_grades.html
This brings me to your feeble attempt at insult by you calling me "you broker".  Since your memory must be failing you I would like to alert you to generally known fact that I am breeding and training dogs for 44 years and yes I also import dogs and give seminars to LE agencies and to private personnel. Also your memory must be failing you since I have already answered  your aggressive question many times before  here and elsewhere, but I have better things to do then keep refreshing your failing  memory of innate attacks on me what ever it is. For example I must now go clean dog shit, train a dog and take care of my pups from OFA certified parents. 
FYI to general public here if by rare chance one of our dog ends up with bad hips I will give you another dog. I have never asked anybody ever to send me their dysplastic dog back. This happens in about 1%-4% of x rayed pups which we sell. That is an excellent record.
Prager Hans

LadyFrost, here are OFA excellent hips...out of an SV A2, fast normal male. 

I asked you how you handle guarantees on the dogs you broker. Do you not broker dogs from Europe? Do you not earn a living in part by selling dogs you have not bred yourself, a middle man so to speak?  That's being a dog broker, is it not? Why would you care what a no body  showline owner like me thinks about you anyway? Your main problem is with the working dog world, your reputation there isn't exactly stellar, surely you know that?

Do you understand what I meant regarding the difference between ratings and clearances yet or are you still going to be beating that dead horse for a while longer?  If so, let  me end the pain and say - Prager you are right and I, Blitzen, am wrong about hip ratings. Happy now?

BTW  think you know very well why I and many others have a concern about your ethics.....remember Chrissy?