What is a King Shepherd - Page 5

Hundmutter your point is well taken and the only thing I disagree with you is that these are not GSD's. My problem with this thread and the thread Mixed German Shepherd is there seems to be a concerted effort to denigrate proper GSD breeding. The marketing for Old German Shepherds, Kings and Shilohs is based on these dogs being GSD's as they used to be when that is further from the truth. These breeders are banking on an ill informed consumer and need to perpetuate the myth that if you get a German Shepherd Dog from a breeder sticking to the breed standard you are going to get health nightmares and the temperaments will not be as German Shepherd Dogs used to be. Some posters on this and the other thread are seeking in my opinion to leave internet evidence proving their point. They are trying to capture the viewers of this site that are dismayed by the threads on health issues, bad breeders and temperament into thinking they have the solution. At no point in time in the breed's history could Old, King, or Shiloh shepherds meet the requirements of a breed survey. The size of these dogs alone shows you these breeders have no intention of producing GSD's and are seeking to make new breeds.

Markobites   I guess we can at least agree that they are not
German Shepherd Dogs AS GSDs SHOULD BE .

I agree with you too Markobytes regarding the way I have seen the over-sized GSDs, the Shilohs and Kings being marketed.  I just don't understand it- in my opinion they are not representative of the GSD of the past at all. I had a GSD in the 1960s and she was definitely not over-sized, although she did have a straight back, which is one of the things that that has been maintained in the Shilohs and Kings. I know the Shiloh breed pretty well and many don't have what it takes to be a working dog, although there are some that have done well at SAR and herding. 

My theory is that those who are claiming the over-sized GSDs, Shilohs and Kings are the GSD of the past are basing it on their perception as a child. Everything looked big back then! LOL! I remember going back to the house I grew up  in a few years back, after not seeing since I was a teenager. In my mind it was always quite a large house, but I was very surprised to see how modest it was!

In my opinion the Shilohs and Kings have developed into a different breed. Although their roots go back to the GSD and they may resemble the GSD in appearance, they are not GSDs. That said, the breed still maintains many of the desirable qualities of the GSD. I still love the GSD and always will.

Playing devil's advocate here...although I agree with Char, there would not have been a market for these breeds if the GSD had not changed so drastically during the last few decades.

That's what attracted me to the Shiloh in the first place. I hated the roached backs of the German lines, and the overangulation of the American lines. I tried to find a GSD that looked like the ones I remembered from the 60s and 70s and the Shilohs were the closest thing I could find.

The working line dogs did resemble the dogs of the 60s but they got so much bad press that I was afraid they would be too much dog for me. No one wants to live with a prey monster that can't be trusted with the family cat or small children.

We all know there are still good GSDs out there, but you have to admit that some of the bad press was deserved, and breeders like Tina Barber and Shelly Watts-Cross, and the oversized GSD breeders took advantage of this to market their dogs.

I held off buying a Shiloh for a long time as I didn't like them being oversized, and I didn't like them not being recognized by AKC or CKC as that greatly limited the opportunities to show them. Also, I could get a GSD for much less money!

Starrchar I think you are right, I once visited a waterfall with a friend and his children that I used to go to as a child. I was disappointed when I could now see the top of the waterfall that seemed so grand as a child, but when I got down to the children's level it appeared majestic once again. It all depends on your perspective.

I love that idea that the dogs seemed to be bigger to children.
Maybe that's so.

Now, anyone got an explanation for the thousands one meets
- of all age groups - who always say they were bitten by a GSD
when they were a child, and it put them off big dogs ?
If half the stories were genuine we would have had a big press
purge on the scale of the "Rotties are Devil Dogs" thing, about
every three years ... stats on dog bites simply don't support
these numbers.  Yet the people really believe it happened to
them.        [ ? Mouthing;  being barked at ?]


In terms of bad mouthing the GSD structure, health and temperament, 
( and we fall into it ourselves on this board )  we should still remember
that a MAJORITY of the breed are structurally sound  (a hell of a lot more
dogs I've seen at British Shows have toplines like that on the much
vaunted Bruno,  rather than hinges, bananas, 'roaches');  and a majority
of GSDs live reasonably long and relatively healthy lives.  And far from
all dogs working PP or IPO are savage helions off the field.
We're like vets - we see so much of people bewailing mishaps, we 
forget what else is out there and what a good dog is.   People selling
the 'varieties' opportunistically stir the pot on these concerns, because
they hope to increase their market share.  99% of it comes down to $$$.

What is funny to me is that even a perfect example of the breed will look to have a a slanting back in stretched stack but when standing naturally its not. I think over time SL breeders here in the states bred for their rear angles to create a physical slope because they wanted that look in the ring. It's stupid and horrid because if you look at most german lines they do it when they trot or are stacked that way. Here its a physical issue there its a visual from the dogs stance at the time. They don't have blown out hocks like a frog. I seen videos of ASL dogs where it looks like the dog is being dragged around the ring because its rear angulation is physically non functional.. Disgusting! And it was bred for this. They still put a blue ribbon on it.

Here its a physical issue there its a visual from the dogs stance at the time. They don't have blown out hocks like a frog. I seen videos of ASL dogs where it looks like the dog is being dragged around the ring because its rear angulation is physically non functional.. Disgusting! And it was bred for this. They still put a blue ribbon on it.

Agree.  And an   for those poor dogs and  to the breeders who selectively bred and created those "frogs".