DM clear vs carrier - Page 7

Keith and J Basler . Aren't you afraid that people will stone you?  I admire your courage. 
Blitzen You cannot compare HD radiograph to DNA testing. Radiograph is prove of phenotype ( dog has it or does not has it) DNA means that it  has it somewhere in genetic code prove of genotype. . 
I am torn about all this testing though.

Prager, I really don't need or want a lesson from you on the difference between xrays and DNA testing for DM. I am quite aware of the difference between phenotype and genotype.

Read again what I said

Again, it's DNA test available to those who wish to use it. There can be strong arguements made pro and con. Just like xraying hips and elbows, checking eyes, thyroid, cardiac function, temperament, titles,everyone has their own opinion on what is a priority for them. Same for buyers and those seeking a stud dog.

I think what Prager stated is that having it in the DNA (say as a recessive) might deceive people into thinking that the next generation would "express" the situation, whereas the expression of the gene may be linked to a variety of trigger factors (polygenic and otherwise) coming together as a team (which in turn may be impossible to unravel through a DNA test) and thus the test itself may be utterly deceptive and would be literally triggering false positives all around. 

A majority of the dogs in existence might probably be eliminated from the gene-pool entirely, since they probably carry the gene as a carrier and gunshy breeders would refuse to breed them, for fear of being called irresponsible.  Extreme scenario but plausible if DNA tests for these things become more widespread.

@"...gunshy breeders...", lol, like there is a shortage of breeders.

Geez..........How many times must it be said - the DNA test for DM IS NOT MEANT TO ELIMINATE ONE SINGLE DOG FROM BREEDING. THE PURPOSE IS TO NOT DOUBLE UP ON THE GENE AND PRODUCE MORE AT RISKS PERIOD. It's an optional test per the GSDCA and I'm not sure that the SV has addressed it at all. 
 
Aakay you haved stated here many times that you are not a breeder, so maybe DNA doesn't seem important to you. If you ever do decide to breed, you may welcome the opportunity to know what your breeding stock is capable of producing or not before planning a breeding.

Yeah, as if there's a shortage of GSD breeders

putting this is from the other thread...

I wouldnt test- the present OFA test is a waste of time. It predicts things that cannot reasonably be predicted, and that has already been shown to be true. IMHO, the danger of testing is the incorrect labeling that comes from it-The false hope it gives, allowing people to be blindsided, the false impression it gives puppy buyers,and the fact that many believe it is an answer, stopping the real answer from being found while one dog falls to the disease after another. Garbage in, garbage out. When one begins research with a false premise, that does NO ONE or the breed any good. Its just throwing good money after bad :( There are 2 kinds of DM??? Not in OUR breed! I seriously diasagree- - strenuously disagree, unless the two kinds are1) DM or 2) improper diagnosis! The *2* kinds of DM came about based upon a false presumption that all breeds get the same form of DM, when that was NEVER the case! The DM of the GSD NEVER matched the DM of corgis and Boxers. All science pointed in the opposite direction and I screamed that from the rooftops for years! We didnt even get one generation down the line before the bottom fell out of that playpen.Our breed ws ignored, science was ignored, and that just seriously anger me, as it should anger everyone who professes to love this breed..

-->and I think it's definitely better than nothing to test with something that might be slightly inaccurate than to not test at all

WHY??????? Whats the point if it isnt accurate???

>>The test does mean something...it tells you the status of your dog for one of the forms of DM.   a form we already know that GSDS do NOT develop and never have!

As far as fraud... I did have a loooooong talk with the  OFA about its original wording in the explanation of test results. I did, in fact, have an attorney who was willing to represent, pro bono, to challenge the wording on the OFA site as benig fraudulent, in relation to the DM test reslts.  I informed the OFA that they were fraudulently representing the OFA DNA Test in relation to German Shepherds. Fraudulent representation is when
"(1)that the party making the statement was aware that it is false or disregards the possibility of it being false;"
The OFA knew what they were saying was false, as they had been presented with documented cases of clear dogs being found to have DM upon necropsy (necropsies done by Dr Coates and her staff), yet there was not even ONE word on the site letting people know the truth. Hence, the pro bono offer, hence my discussion with the OFA, hence the wording change that is now on their website. (FYI- Dr Coates has now stopped doing free necropsies! Why? Wouldnt that be the prudent thing to do, as far as GSDS developing DM that tested as clear and carrier? Wouldnt you think she would want to know what was happening, as a follow up to her test which is being promoted as the gospel, for GSD DM? 

The problem as I see it is that people pick up *buzz words* without truly understanding DM.  No one with a true and thorough understanding of the science of DM could have any faith in the OFA test. To make claims for the future when the test hasnt even been accurate in this generation of dogs being tested is just lunacy, IMHO. No, it is NOT better than doing nothing, as the results mean nothing- they have no validity.

Please, people- dont pick up on buzz words and bandy them about, without true understandingt! You are doing the breed no favors- you are just standing in the way of REAL research!! EDUCATE yourselves about DM. Yes, to learn about DM takes time, a lot of time if you wish to scientificallly understand it.  If you dont want to take the time, dont stick your finger into the dike and think you are helping- you are not! In fact, you are more likely to hurt the breed. Its not ABOUT HYPE- ITS ABOUT truth!

Sorry if I sound angry- I am, having lost 2 dogs to DM and knowing, all along that research was headed in the wrong direction, and daily, another one downand another one down and another one bites the dust :"(

From Fred Lanting article

                 Test for Degenerative Myelopathy gene now available 2010

      The test clearly identifies dogs that are clear(have 2 normal copies of the gene),those who are carriers(have one normal copy of the gene and one mutated copy of the gene),and those who are at much higher risk for developing DM(have 2 mutated copies of the gene).
 
                   HOWEVER,HAVING TWO MUTATED COPIES OF THE GENE DOES NOT NECESSARILY RESULT IN DISEASE.

OFFA= Orthopaedic Foundation for Animals..........pray tell how all various tests that OFFA is recommending and collecting money for, has anything to do with BONES !! This organization has found the weak spot in pet owners and is capitalizing on it. Test, test ,test...even if the test is not valid for the breed OFA is recommending the test for.

Joanro, if you use a dog for breeding that can't pass a cardiac test, or a thyroid function, just maybe that dog shouldn't be bred? If a breeder doesn't test, that breeder doesn't know until an affected shows up. Why would a breeder not want to know all they can about their dogs' DNA if it could mean breeding a healthier dog?

If a breeder doesn't think the current DNA DM test isn't accurate, then simply don't test for it or ignore the results.

BTW the individual tests reported on the  OFA site are the results of decisions made by the parent breed clubs and dog breeders and generally address diseases that are specific to that breed. They are tests recommended by them, not the OFA. Sometimes other breeds are also effected and they too can benefit from research finding the DNA markers. The research is generally funded by the parent clubs, dog fanciers, private individuals,  and the AKC. 

Researchers just found the marker for PN in my original breed, research was done in Sweden and it cost us a fair amount of money. As a result, we can identify carriers of this deadly disease, a simple recessive mode of inheritance. Now breeders have the tool to avoid producing more effected dogs without eliminating ONE dog from the gene pool. 

These are the tests required for a CHIC cert (hips, elbows temperament test) and the "optional" tests suggested by the GSDCA


 
German Shepherd Dog (search)

 

Hip Dysplasia

• OFA Evaluation

Elbow Dysplasia

• OFA Evaluation

Temperament Test

• Results of GSDCA Temperament test submitted to OFA

Congenital Cardiac Database (Optional)

• OFA Evaluation

Autoimmune thyroiditis (Optional)

• OFA evaluation from an approved laboratory - recommend yearly testing

Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist- recommend annually until age 6, every 2 years thereafter (Optional)

• results entered with CERF, or
• Results registered with OFA

Degenerative Myelopathy (Optional)

• DNA Based Degenerative Myelopathy test through UFL or the U of MO.

 

Blitzen I absolutely positively do not care what you "need or want". I am just pointing here to whom ever who will read your and my  posts,  that you are putting  in the same bag unrelated issuers. It is fair enough I guess,....  but we are talking about DNA testing  and not about other testing which has obvious characteristic of being a testing for phenotype. ( Like x raying the dog) DNA is testing for genotype and that is a completely different issue because it may lead people to eliminate dogs from their breeding program which have such gene even so it did not expressed itself in the phenotype.  Is that desirable? I do not know but I tend to think it is not desirable. Why not? Because I go by mother nature. And mother nature does not eliminate animals who are carriers of genetic sequencing  or genes which  may or may not express itself.  Where on the other hand  the selective breeding  which deals with phenotypes is trying to mimic nature which eliminates dogs (and progeny of all living things with problems in phenotype.

Prager Hans