BREEDER TO STAY AWAY FROM, VOM RON GERMAN SHEPHERDS IN NC - Page 3

Bhaugh, You think my delivery didn't do much to help my position. :)

aakay, As Jenni said, "I... frankly could not care less who the dogs were/are. Would one bad elbow even be enough to strike them from from breeding??" The answer to the question is yes. You are wrong regarding the cause of Elbow Dysplasia, and it's rather hypocritical that you should criticise so-called "experts" while professing your own ill-informed notions. FYI:

The Three Faces of Elbow Dysplasia

Elbow dysplasia is a general term used to identify an inherited polygenic disease in the elbow of dogs. Three specific etiologies make up this disease and they can occur independently or in conjunction with one another. These etiologies include:

1. Pathology involving the medial coronoid of the ulna (FCP)
2. Osteochondritis of the medial humeral condyle in the elbow joint (OCD)
3. Ununited anconeal process (UAP)

Studies have shown the inherited polygenic traits causing these etiologies are independent of one another. Clinical signs involve lameness which may remain subtle for long periods of time. No one can predict at what age lameness will occur in a dog due to a large number of genetic and environmental factors such as degree of severity of changes, rate of weight gain, amount of exercise, etc. Subtle changes in gait may be characterized by excessive inward deviation of the paw which raises the outside of the paw so that it receives less weight and distributes more mechanical weight on the outside (lateral) aspect of the elbow joint away from the lesions located on the inside of the joint. Range of motion in the elbow is also decreased.

Source (and there are plenty more): http://www.offa.org/ed_types.html

Please note the words "inherited polygenic".

Ok, guys. Here's the new plan: If a dog, no matter how often bred, or how many hundreds upon hundreds of healthy offspring they may have to their credit, is party to even one ailment, whether it's been verified or not, whether it's been proven genetic or not, regardless of any essential qualities the dog may bring to the table, the dog must immediately be yanked from the gene pool! This plan is in effect immediately, and now, with my new breeding plan, we have just solved all ailments in the breed, inluding those dastardly polygenic ones. The world is now a better place, thanks to me and my new breeding plan. Line up for your new pet rocks!

Now. Now. The ailment would need to be heritable, like ED, and proven to exist. If you did the rest of your plan, you would simply be complying with the rules and codes of a great many GSD associations around the world, and you would be at least attempting to avoid the sad situations illustrated by this thread.

If GSDs were pulled from breeding for producing 1 bad elbow, or one bad set of hips, or really one bad anything (you pick) the GSD would have been extinct long ago. There are genetic issues prevalent in GSD that will probably never be eliminated, no matter how responsible a breeder is. A good breeder will do all available to try and eliminate them, and that includes available health checks, but not breeding an otherwise good dog for a single occurrence is a little over the top.

Sorry, Allanf, so in your sage wisdom, continuous beating on the joints (elbow for instance) of a growing puppy, whose joints have not fully formed, will not result in elbow (and or hip) displasia ? So every single case of ED (or HD) are inherited ? Thanks for the erudite rendition on this topic, since this is news to several of us and to me in particular !

Just to throw some light on this topic, here is a link on ED and read under the topic "Causes", which I have quoted below:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbow_dysplasia

Quote from the topic "causes" from the above link (if you could focus especially on the words "possibly includes genetics, trauma and nutrition" and meditate a bit on the "trauma" aspect and understand what that is, that would be appreciated)

UAP is one form that is especially confusing and known to be sometimes caused by trauma to the distal physis which results in it closing prematurely, often leaving one bone growing and one bone not. Radial and ulnar incongruity will most certainly affect the elbow. Now, is that truly genetic "elbow dysplasia"? I think not, but it sure is tough to tell sometimes, as trauma to that area can easily go unnoticed in a big, clumsy, high drive puppy who likes to play Evel Knievel. The other forms are more solidly linked to at least a genetic predisposition, if not true heritability. As we have no information in this case, I think speculation is futile and gives this thread undue attention. 

aaykay, perhaps you should start a petition to inform the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals that wikipedia proves they are wrong. You would find a great many co-petitioners from this forum. LOL.
If you continuously beat your puppy's joints, you won't cause ED or HD, but you would certainly end up in trouble with the animal welfare authorities. And yes ED and HD are heritable diseases. I'm surprised that you and so few other people are aware of that. If you are ever looking for another puppy (after you've finished beating the other one ... you are sick, man!), make sure you check the health status of the parents and grandparents, because the diseases can be passed on.

BTW did you check your quotation's citation in wikipedia. I believe the textbook is now past it's 7th edition and may very well have been amended to reflect more up-to-date research. 

FWIW: as late as last Oct,2011, I was expecting the first litter in over a year and the first litter since all this mess began. I contacted Melody and asked her how she was situated dog-wise. She said she had moved out of state, got rid of the boyfriend, and the Malanois. Said she only had the neutered male GSD and the show GSD. I asked if she still wanted a male sable pup. She did. She said she wanted to see pictures of the litter when they were born. I said no problem, and that, being as I have never seen exrays of her dog's two affected elbows, would she please provide them so I'd have them for my records. Well, the entire exchange went south , again. Said she had no intentions of sending me exrays, and instead, I later discovered, she posted her YT video the day after I requested the exrays.
BHall, you said give her a pup and be done with it......in light of this, what would you do?

My only comment on this thread is that the more I analyze the statistical models behind the often-cited HD/ED studies, the less I feel that I understand with absolute certainty the cause(s) of these disorders. I'm sure my thoughts don't fit neatly into something that can be glibly cut and pasted from a website. I've studied chemistry long enough to see things that were believed to be understood with absolute certainty be unceremoniously disproven. *shrug*

I sincerely hope that things are worked out amicably and privately between the breeder and the original poster.

Allanf,  to point something out since you seem to have missed something in your above post....yes, ED/HD could be heritable conditions....AND can also be environmentally induced, in an otherwise genetically healthy puppy. I believe you seem to constantly have trouble in grasping the "AND" portion above, and keep reverting to the genetic aspect alone.

Think about it for a second fellow.  Constant pounding on young (still forming) joints, when a puppy high-jumps around or runs around on hard surfaces (like tarmac etc)......you don't think there is a logical basis for joint injury, above and beyond the genetics aspect ?

Just as an aside, did you allow your dog's joints to be pounded on,during its puppy-hood, by running him/her on  hard surfaces and allowing him/her to high-jump around ?  Just curious, since you seem to be totally fixated on the genetics aspect and ignoring other potential situations that could cause joint problems.