Brindle German Shepherd Dog - Page 4

In addition, most brindle GSDs that are photographed come from either black-tan parentage or unknown parentage. The lines that carry the most incidence of recessive black don't seem to be throwing brindle pups... So, for most cases, I think it's not a case of a normal transmission of the K^br gene down through generations of GSDs--I think this is extremely unlikely. I suspect either mutations or a recent brindle ancestor (Dutch shepherd, especially, nowadays) in almost every case of brindle "GSDs".

In modern GSDs - particularly those animals with untraceable pedigree - it's possible that it's a dutch shepherd influence. However, one must remember that the Dutchie, GSD, and Belgian Shepherds more or less are believed to have shared the same "shepherd" type dogs in the beginning. It's just the different clubs aimed for different traits but the genes would have been there from the beginning.



Kind of like the St. John's Dog - said to be the founder of most retrievers and Newfoundlands. The difference in the descending / modern dogs depended entirely upon what the breeders wanted. However, you can occasionally come up with odd balls. Such as how you can get brindle Labs if you look carefully - they are black & tan brindle. Picture of a brindled lab
http://labradornet.com/brindletanpoint.html
http://labradornet.com/sonny_e.html


Soft Coated Wheatens for example are almost 100% supposed to be wheaten in coloring. Their pups look very agouti like until about 1 year of age.\
However, and as apparent with this guy from european working lines, that isn't the case. Last I heard this dog had matured as a black & silver/tan. Not what is deemed standard and yet from pedigreed parents. Don't ask for the email as this was a while ago when I was doing genetics on terriers and their mis-marked pups. You will probably never find what I discovered about Wheatens and their mismarks on the internet... I had to email dozens upon dozens of breeders to even get about 15-18 responses back...


The only thing I can say is that for being one of the most popular dog breeds there really isn't that much research into the GSD itself and its genetics. People accept the given standard and would prefer not to talk of the mismarks, the oddities, etc. Just sell them off as pets and not mention a thing about them - ruins the breeders' rep after all.

Also I'd like to point out the various brindles. It's not just ah brindle... and that's that.

boxershe is a reverse brindle, the darkest sort of brindle you can get
http://www.saboxer.co.za/boxer_colours.html

mix long hair
http://www.greatdogsite.com/photos/gallery/Gollie/?index=1

dutchies
http://www.dutchshepherdforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=1509

Some like the dutchies are obvious brindle but at passing glance neither the mix breed nor the boxer are obvious brindle dogs.

Elkoorr, you'll have to keep us updated on how the test turns out. I found that same dog back in Qira's pedigree (she is from the same kennel your girl is I believe). Qira's dad was a solid black with bleedthrough, and she also has that wavy coat you mentioned, but has no bleedthrough. Interesting!!

Elkoorr,

I had my bitch tested through them to find out if she was genetically black or a melanistic bi-color. She had tan toes as young as 8 weeks and has increasingly shown more tan. She looks like a bi.
She is not a brindle. Her tests came back as kyky/aa, a full recessive black dog. When I spoke with the lab they informed me that they believe bleedthru is a gene possibly passed by the sire. They have not yet found that out.

The reason that Labs can have brindles crop up is that K^b can hide K^br--so you could have generations of K^bK^br ancestors with no brindle showing up until bred to another K^bK^br and then you get K^brK^br -- brindle puppies. And there is no doubt that the foundation of the breed showed brindles--but it's easy to breed away from a dominant color--you just don't breed to it. So, how would the gene "hide" in generations of non-brindle ancestors?

Christine^.

Christine, would it be possible that it is hidden in sables? I mean, genetically might be brindle, but our visual perception its just another sable as not every brindle is clearly striped? I dont think its hidden in the recessive blacks though.

I just can't see generations of sable covering brindle up--I do think a brindle sable is less distinctly brindle, but I think it would be an unusual looking sable. And again, you'd see the brindle cropping up in black-tan children/siblings/parents, no?

Christine

It seems that a dog can have k^br on the K locus, but then its not necessarily expressed on the A locus? If the dog is A^y on the A locus than k^br if present, could be surpressed by the sable coloring. Unsure though about a^t dogs that have k^br present, how would this be expressed, if at all?

Dawulf, I found a pic that shows the wavy stripe pattern on Tunguska.

Unsure though about a^t dogs that have k^br present, how would this be expressed, if at all?

Apparently, this is a saddle back dog with brindle markings on the legs. I would think a sable GSD would have the brindle on the tan areas (legs) too.... but not sure.

Christine

The reason that Labs can have brindles crop up is that Kb can hide Kbr--so you could have generations of KbKbr ancestors with no brindle showing up until bred to another KbKbr and then you get KbrKbr -- brindle puppies. And there is no doubt that the foundation of the breed showed brindles--but it's easy to breed away from a dominant color--you just don't breed to it. So, how would the gene "hide" in generations of non-brindle ancestors?

Black in GSD works the same way, if not worst given as GSDs have two types of black. Labs have one, Kb.

Similarly it is unknown what brindle + agouti/sable makes and/or appears as so it is possible that the darker or more heavily marked sable GSDs are carrying brindle somewhere in their genetics.

Bi-colors and blanket types can likewise hide brindle unless really examined due to the small amount of tan that is actually visible in either coloration - a black & tan would be glaringly brindle.
 

True black sables are said to be some sort of a co-dominance between aw / sable and a / recessive black. 

The website - facebook - claims this to be a DDR black sable.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151017085004019&set=o.70626018114&type=1&relevant_count=1&ref=nf

An animal marked that richly is going to disguise a lot unlike closely examined.

 

Similarly most show line GSDs are highly and heavily inbred - not to start anything - but I've seen sires on Pedigree that has supposedly sired hundreds of offspring. A high inbreeding cofactor is going to eliminate unusual traits - brindle - in show line dogs as they are bred to fit the standard as close as possible.

 

Old line patrol dogs / DDR - Czech \ and high level working animals / bloodlines are more than likely to carry unusual traits - brindle - than show animals.