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by Storms Malis on 21 January 2010 - 21:01
As posted in the Mason Thread I thought I would bring up the discussion in it's own thread. It is an important topic and many people have their own opinions. Now I will say this, I love both working line and showline mals and what I also like is the cross between the two. It is a matter of lifestyle and what matches yours. In both worlds, show and working, have effected the breed in certain ways. Some of the working line dogs are not very stable and are way to aggressive, some of the showline dogs are lazy couch potatoes, neither of which are what the Mal is about. I don't support strictly only working lines are the best or strictly showlines are the best nor is a cross between the two the best. To me the best is dog is a good dog. I think a great stable mind, great health and at the very least a good working ability. The show world has ruined many breeds, like the bulldog and GSD in many ways as well as many others, lets face it it is a beauty contest. However there are breeds that have been bettered. But some of the working world has ruined breeds also, when you don't know what your doing when it comes to breeding dogs. Breeding unstable and aggressive to the same you will likely get mostly that from your pups and unfortunately people that do that are sending puppies out there like that and are giving this breed out there a bad name. This is not a thread to argue but to give your own insight into so people can make an informed decision on what suits their own lifestyle. Because of my lifestyle and the many things I like to do with my dogs I like the combo of both worlds. They work, I use them to herd, as I raise cattle, I use them for protection, I use them to show in confirmation, I trial in obedience, we play in flyball and agility, they are hooked to my dog sled and pull me around, and they live with me in my house. To live in both worlds I have both working line and showline. Love them both and all have many purposes. Some working Mals are difficult to live with. They pace, if they are not stimulated and sometimes they still do even if they are stimulated, they jump up every time I leave my chair, of course they can be trained not to. I find nothing wrong with either, I love them all for who they are. Yes they are bred to work but it certainly doesn't mean they can't be bred with an off button. They still are great dogs no matter what. They don't always have to be intense and ready to play schutzhund. They can be calm and ready to herd or just go play fetch with a bit of a relaxed demeanor. I agree they are a working dog and there should always be a working ability within them but it is to what intensity that fits your own lifestyle. As long as they work it shouldn't really matter. If you don't want working line than stay away, if you don't like showline stay away. No biggy find your own prefrence, find kennels that have only working see what you think and find kennels that have only showline and see what you think. Find kennels that have both or a combo and see what you think. I know several kennels that are good and bad of all the above. So decide on your lifestyle and be honest about it and you will find close to the perfect dog to fits you. But no matter what you choose they are a dog that needs stimulation and are active dogs and should be in active homes. Be prepared for that.
by malinoid on 24 January 2010 - 21:01
Out of 400+ breeds of dogs in the world, there are just a few breeds left that can work in the venues that the Malinois excels. In reality, it's more like a small segment of individuals with those breeds; the Malinois, Dutch Shepherd, German Shepherd...the occaisional Giant Schnauzer, Bouvier, Rottweiler, Dobermann.
IMO, don't dumb down the breed to make it more acceptable to the masses, and breeding dogs with the goal of producing 'show' winners, is dumbing it down. What breed, may I ask, has been improved by show-type breeders?
I've come to grips with the fact that there are people out there that are going to breed crap dogs regardless of whatever I, or anyone else, says. The problem is when breeding mediocre representatives of the breed becomes the norm, and I believe that the show world fosters this. I believe this because there are no criteria within the show circuit that adequately evaluate the characteristics that make a good Malinois. Like I said in the other thread, even when you're very judicious in breeding dogs for work, inevitably there will be pups that don't make it as workers. These pups are often still better suited as companions than dogs bred for generations as show dogs because their parents/grandparents etc. have been evaluated & selected for proper character, temperament, health, etc.
The GSD has shown us that attempting to combine Show & work lines, more oftern than not, produced dogs that are too 'ugly' to show or lack the drive/character to work. If you want a Malinois, get a Malinois....if you want a Golden Retriever, get a Golden...but don't breed the Malinois (or any other working breed) to get a Golden Retriever in a Malinois body.
IMO, don't dumb down the breed to make it more acceptable to the masses, and breeding dogs with the goal of producing 'show' winners, is dumbing it down. What breed, may I ask, has been improved by show-type breeders?
I've come to grips with the fact that there are people out there that are going to breed crap dogs regardless of whatever I, or anyone else, says. The problem is when breeding mediocre representatives of the breed becomes the norm, and I believe that the show world fosters this. I believe this because there are no criteria within the show circuit that adequately evaluate the characteristics that make a good Malinois. Like I said in the other thread, even when you're very judicious in breeding dogs for work, inevitably there will be pups that don't make it as workers. These pups are often still better suited as companions than dogs bred for generations as show dogs because their parents/grandparents etc. have been evaluated & selected for proper character, temperament, health, etc.
The GSD has shown us that attempting to combine Show & work lines, more oftern than not, produced dogs that are too 'ugly' to show or lack the drive/character to work. If you want a Malinois, get a Malinois....if you want a Golden Retriever, get a Golden...but don't breed the Malinois (or any other working breed) to get a Golden Retriever in a Malinois body.
by vincentpmchugh on 26 January 2010 - 08:01
by Storms Malis on 01 February 2010 - 21:02
Now hold on here, think about this, the working line world is just as guilty as showline world. Don't forget the what the Malinois was originally bred for, first and foremost they were a herding dog, not a ring, schutzhund or poilice dog. Do any of you working line people use your dogs to herd? Do you see the Mal competeing with the border collies on a national level, no and you want to know why? Because they are not really suitable anymore, Why??? cause they have to high of drive, they want to work but are out of control. Another example is a the police forces I have talked to that have stopped using Mals because the breed will work themselves to death. Another example, some SAR groups need thinkers not just reacters. They want their dogs to be able to think before just going over the edge of a cliff following a scent/object. Yet another example is a guy who uses his dogs in the security buisness, he has a very hard time finding a suitable Mal for his line of work, many schutzhund dogs have been offered to him but are just way to much drive. He wants his dogs to know the difference between a real threat and a poor old lady walking down the street with the cane in her hand, real threats don't wear bite suits or sleeves, they must stop and think about the energy of the possible threat (not to say that your personal dogs wouldn't, but there are many who would not know the difference). Yes I agree the showline dogs sometimes just don't have enough drive.
Many showline dogs are beginning to excell in the herding line of work. These are mostly dogs that are a cross between the both worlds.
I think before everyone goes to play the blame game you must keep an open mind and go back to the original use of the dog. The working world has distorted the breed just as much as the show world has. Talk about breeding to suit your needs. The original dog is somewhere half way in between both worlds. I agree drive is definately a huge must but to much drive can be as bad as not enough drive, depending on your use of the dog. This is why I am not against either.
I herd as well as many other things, when my working line dog is way out in the field with a herd sometimes she gets so hectic and excited that she splits the herd, she has to stop and think before she reacts her thoughts go something like this "get the cow, get the cow, get the cow" and it should be "keep the herd together, keep the herd together, move them to the corral" not just simply "get the cow". My working line showline cross (which actually leans toward more of the showline side) is kind of like "keep the herd going to the corral.......oooo was that a butterfly, wow wonder what this pile of horse poo tastes like.....oh ya cows to move".
So you tell me whats better. Cows running around wildly in every direction or cows kind of wondering around aimlessly, slowly moving towards the corral.
I know some of you will never see it any other way other than your own, and thats ok just don't persacute or judge me for trying to do right thing for the breed, and I certainly will do the same for you.
If I wanted a Golden retriever I would have got one, I want a dog who can protect me, can herd my cattle, can play flyball or agility and do it quickly, I want a dog that will swim when it is to hot to work them doing something else, and a dog that will work when I ask doing the work I want them to do and will relax when I ask, and is capable of some amazing obedience work as well as show well in confirmation. Now you tell me what other breed in the world will do all those things for me. I would have to have at least 2 or 3 other breeds to fill the shoes of this one breed. This is why I chose this breed, it is a healthy, wonderful and versitile breed. I may want different levels of intensity which is available in both worlds.
To me the M
Many showline dogs are beginning to excell in the herding line of work. These are mostly dogs that are a cross between the both worlds.
I think before everyone goes to play the blame game you must keep an open mind and go back to the original use of the dog. The working world has distorted the breed just as much as the show world has. Talk about breeding to suit your needs. The original dog is somewhere half way in between both worlds. I agree drive is definately a huge must but to much drive can be as bad as not enough drive, depending on your use of the dog. This is why I am not against either.
I herd as well as many other things, when my working line dog is way out in the field with a herd sometimes she gets so hectic and excited that she splits the herd, she has to stop and think before she reacts her thoughts go something like this "get the cow, get the cow, get the cow" and it should be "keep the herd together, keep the herd together, move them to the corral" not just simply "get the cow". My working line showline cross (which actually leans toward more of the showline side) is kind of like "keep the herd going to the corral.......oooo was that a butterfly, wow wonder what this pile of horse poo tastes like.....oh ya cows to move".
So you tell me whats better. Cows running around wildly in every direction or cows kind of wondering around aimlessly, slowly moving towards the corral.
I know some of you will never see it any other way other than your own, and thats ok just don't persacute or judge me for trying to do right thing for the breed, and I certainly will do the same for you.
If I wanted a Golden retriever I would have got one, I want a dog who can protect me, can herd my cattle, can play flyball or agility and do it quickly, I want a dog that will swim when it is to hot to work them doing something else, and a dog that will work when I ask doing the work I want them to do and will relax when I ask, and is capable of some amazing obedience work as well as show well in confirmation. Now you tell me what other breed in the world will do all those things for me. I would have to have at least 2 or 3 other breeds to fill the shoes of this one breed. This is why I chose this breed, it is a healthy, wonderful and versitile breed. I may want different levels of intensity which is available in both worlds.
To me the M
by Phil Behun on 02 February 2010 - 00:02
I think you are phrasing the herding problem incorrectly. Maybe confusing the term "drive" when you really mean "aggressive". As far as security people saying the dogs are unable to distinguish between what is a threat and what is not,,,,don't forget, there is a market for such a dog and people who want it. Leave it that way. Want a dog to herd stock and be protective???? Get a Cattle Dog. Leave the Malinois to those of us that accept it for what it is and want it that way. Sure the dog was developed as a herding dog and evolved into a military/police master tool,,,,,,,,,,leave it that way. There are plenty of non-aggressive breeds for the SAR folk to choose from,,,,,,leave this one alone. Border Collies and Kelpies and even some Aussies herd sheep just fine but I don't necessarily want one as my protection dog. I also don't try and hunt geese with a handgun, I get the right tool for the job. If I want to win the Indy 500, I don't enter with a garbage truck. Stop asking a dog to do everything you ask and get the proper tool. Sure dogs can perform many tasks, so can a surgeon. But I don't want someone's Podiatrist performing valve replacement surgery on me. Becoming a jack of all trades usually makes you are a master of none. Don't try and make this breed your own little "save the world project", most of us don't want it to be born again. Leave this breed alone.
by malndobe on 02 February 2010 - 03:02
I have to disagree with your ascertation that the Malinois was not originally used for police work, and was only a herding breed. The Belgian Shepherd as a breed has a history that includes a variety of uses, not just herding. I wrote an article on this exact topic a year or two ago, and posted it on my website.
http://www.dantero.com/belg_history.php
Also as a herding dog the Malinois was never expected to herd the way a BC does. There is a reason it's a loose eyed dog and not a strong eyed dog like a BC. They aren't meant to work the same, in style or even really in the job they did/do. So it stands to reason that Malinois aren't going to regularily compete at the big national BC trials, which are specifically set up to test BC's in the manner which BC's work. Many of the BC's I know wouldn't do well in trials set up to test the loose eyed dogs in the manner they were originally used, doesn't mean they aren't good herding dogs, just means they are different.
http://www.dantero.com/belg_history.php
Also as a herding dog the Malinois was never expected to herd the way a BC does. There is a reason it's a loose eyed dog and not a strong eyed dog like a BC. They aren't meant to work the same, in style or even really in the job they did/do. So it stands to reason that Malinois aren't going to regularily compete at the big national BC trials, which are specifically set up to test BC's in the manner which BC's work. Many of the BC's I know wouldn't do well in trials set up to test the loose eyed dogs in the manner they were originally used, doesn't mean they aren't good herding dogs, just means they are different.
by BigSwill on 02 February 2010 - 06:02
There are very few dogs that are actually used today for what they were originally bred for. I don't recall ever seeing a Rotti pulling a meat cart or a St. Bernard digging in the snow. And most every breed was bred to do more than one job. I do think that both show and working dog breeders can "dummy" down any breed. But when a dog is bred for physical performance and not looks the thought process MUST be different. My wife was watching a dog show a few weeks ago and low and behold a mal comes into the show ring. Naturally that caught my attention. The dog is standing there looking like it was debating if it was going to bite either the judge or the handler. To be honest I was half hoping it would go "mali" on one of them just to prove that it doesn't belong in the show ring. The argument between working lines and show lines is as old as dirt. Show line breeders think they are doing everything for "the betterment of the breed". I hate that phrase. Now with the mal growing in popularity, show breeders want to "tone it down", "give it an off switch", "make it easier to live with the family". If a person can't handle the drive, not aggression, that a mal brings to the table, they don't need a mal. If a mal can't determine who the threat is it's due to poor training and a handler who thinks his dog is Einstein. I determine the threat not the dog. The dog is not my final line of defense and anyone who looks at their dog that way is an idiot, in my opinion. I've always said, if you want to f*** up a good breed, bring it to America. For some reason in this country we want them to do something other than what they are supposed to. Mals have high drive, they tend to be a little suspicious of strangers. A well bred one will nail you if you challenge it. A poorly bred one will nail you because it's too sharp. If the showline folks want a calmer dog, get a basset hound. The GSD's are shit wrecked and have been for years because too many morons thought they were "bettering the breed" and then threw them in the show ring. I fully expect within the nest 10 years it's going to be very difficult to find a decent mal, and as soon as the AKC and idiot breeders figure out how to make money off of Dutchies....I don't even want to think about it. The bottom line is if a person can't handle what a mal brings to the game, they need to but a goldfish.
by Storms Malis on 02 February 2010 - 15:02
Well and again, it depends on what your opinion is of a good dog. My dogs are very good dogs, and trust me if I wanted a BC I would get one. I also know the difference between a keen eyed breed and a loose eyed breed and yes the must be trained differently becasue they are simply different. It does not mean I can't have my Mal chase my cattle and help me do chores. I am not complaining that either of my dogs can't do the job 100% properly, but a happy medium would go a long way. What the heck is wrong with that especially when that is what the breed was originally bred for.
What I don't understand is why it is ok for you guys to intensify the breed to fit your needs but not ok to calm them down a little.
There are still GSD breeders out there that can produce a good working line dog. If there wasn't there would be any working GS. The same will always be with the Mals, there will always be breeders who will only ever breed working lines for police and protection work, and I am certainly most definately fine with that. I am not for one minute saying that is bad.
What is so wrong with having a versitile dog who can be capable of many things. The problem lies in puppy mills and backyard breeders that breed the S**t out of them and sell them to anyone with or without hair and do not care where the dogs end up. At least the good show breeder and good working line breeders care about their dogs and make sure they are in good homes and that to me is the where the problem lies. Have you seen the amount of mal rescues in the states lately??? Thank God in Canada it is still fairly rare to see a Mal rescue. Worry more about people breeding the unwanted dogs ending up in pounds because the owner does not know how to handle a working mal and less about the people who breed a nice showline dog who can still work, and are in excellent homes whether it be a working home or a show home, or heaven forbid a home which does both.
The breed will never be ruined as long as there are breeders out there that believe in the them and there are lots out there that do. As I said before a Mal should always be capable of working, they are a working breed plain and simple, but it does not mean they can't have different levels of working ability.
What I don't understand is why it is ok for you guys to intensify the breed to fit your needs but not ok to calm them down a little.
There are still GSD breeders out there that can produce a good working line dog. If there wasn't there would be any working GS. The same will always be with the Mals, there will always be breeders who will only ever breed working lines for police and protection work, and I am certainly most definately fine with that. I am not for one minute saying that is bad.
What is so wrong with having a versitile dog who can be capable of many things. The problem lies in puppy mills and backyard breeders that breed the S**t out of them and sell them to anyone with or without hair and do not care where the dogs end up. At least the good show breeder and good working line breeders care about their dogs and make sure they are in good homes and that to me is the where the problem lies. Have you seen the amount of mal rescues in the states lately??? Thank God in Canada it is still fairly rare to see a Mal rescue. Worry more about people breeding the unwanted dogs ending up in pounds because the owner does not know how to handle a working mal and less about the people who breed a nice showline dog who can still work, and are in excellent homes whether it be a working home or a show home, or heaven forbid a home which does both.
The breed will never be ruined as long as there are breeders out there that believe in the them and there are lots out there that do. As I said before a Mal should always be capable of working, they are a working breed plain and simple, but it does not mean they can't have different levels of working ability.
by DeeBee on 03 February 2010 - 02:02
ahhh the show /working debate
do you know where the problem lays????
in the people and the segregation of both worlds. it is possible to have both a good solid working dog that is able to compete in the ring. The reason I say this is I own another working breed and I work them and they do great working top of their class but guess what....I showed a couple too.
The show world breed for coat length color fullness stride eye shape and train-ability
The working world breeds for endurance drive - then with GOOD breeders breed for specific areas if the dog is multi task driven.
more breeding thougths I am sure but I will not go into that due to this will be a story without all the reasons of both worlds
this is the problem both worlds have their heads so far up their "head"
that they can not see what they are missing on both sides
I would think that the person that is breeding for all those qualities for both show and working will end up BETTERING the breed...cause they give a crap about the breed and not about what they can make it or change it to. The care about keeping it as it is a good solid dog with very little issues. can any of you say you have not seen the temperment issues of the "extreme" working mal or the lack of drive in the show mal
the mal is the most diverse breed yet and to say it is only good for one area or only accept or promote it for one area is in its self destroying what this breed is all about. It is more than a one job dog and from what I can see many working kennels are so focused in their one area they are not able or not willing to see what the dog was used for
I personally have seen many good show working lines being able to do the job as pure working lines...the idiotic notion that one can not do the other shows the irresponsibility of the breeders, and the slow destruction of yet another good breed ...I see it first hand with many breeds....so shame on both worlds for making the start of the destruction of a good breed.
by making it what they think it should be to suit them and not keeping what it is a healthy solid dog
do you know where the problem lays????
in the people and the segregation of both worlds. it is possible to have both a good solid working dog that is able to compete in the ring. The reason I say this is I own another working breed and I work them and they do great working top of their class but guess what....I showed a couple too.
The show world breed for coat length color fullness stride eye shape and train-ability
The working world breeds for endurance drive - then with GOOD breeders breed for specific areas if the dog is multi task driven.
more breeding thougths I am sure but I will not go into that due to this will be a story without all the reasons of both worlds
this is the problem both worlds have their heads so far up their "head"
that they can not see what they are missing on both sidesI would think that the person that is breeding for all those qualities for both show and working will end up BETTERING the breed...cause they give a crap about the breed and not about what they can make it or change it to. The care about keeping it as it is a good solid dog with very little issues. can any of you say you have not seen the temperment issues of the "extreme" working mal or the lack of drive in the show mal
the mal is the most diverse breed yet and to say it is only good for one area or only accept or promote it for one area is in its self destroying what this breed is all about. It is more than a one job dog and from what I can see many working kennels are so focused in their one area they are not able or not willing to see what the dog was used for
I personally have seen many good show working lines being able to do the job as pure working lines...the idiotic notion that one can not do the other shows the irresponsibility of the breeders, and the slow destruction of yet another good breed ...I see it first hand with many breeds....so shame on both worlds for making the start of the destruction of a good breed.
by making it what they think it should be to suit them and not keeping what it is a healthy solid dog
by Phil Behun on 03 February 2010 - 04:02
Because the show shepherds are such a great example of the breed? Have you witnessed the performance routines at conformation events? Have you seen the AKC version of the GSD and had a chance to witness them work? How can you say that a dog that performs the work that it is bred for has incorrect conformation? Show us the results of which you speak. Show us the performance records of these "show" dogs that are performance champions. To me, as long as the dogs health is sound and the work is supreme, it's a conformation champion. I would be not be disappointed if the breed were not even recognized by the AKC. I would much rather see the DMC Korung introduced here in the States as an evaluatory tool over any conformation rating. That my friends, would separate the men from the boys and eliminate some of the garbage that we are seeing being advertised as "extreme" and "both sire and dam are working K9's". Just tell me bloodlines of puppies, that's enough. These days every Tom, Dick and Goober with a Ray Allen sleeve is a dog trainer. Ahhh, for the good 'ol days when the breed was for purists.
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