Dog kills another family pet, should it be put down? - Page 5

It is pretty apparent to me that there is not a "one size fits all" solution to managing multiple dog settings.  On the one hand it seems that there is a perspective that the best solution to managing the risk of conflict is to maintain safe separation of possible candidates for fighting.  If somebody deviates from this it only evidences their stupidity, as is shown by some of the responses to the case that initiated this thread.  No doubt, if situations for conflict are never allowed to exist then there will never be opportunity for potentially disastrous conflict.  Absolute risk management.

On the other hand, as evidenced in Viaden's photographs above, multiple dog settings are possible where unrestrained interaction and contact are allowed.  And it seems to work.  At least well enough for Viaden.  Makes me wonder how Caesar Milan's Dog Rehab Center functions, but I guess that is another topic.  I don't have TV so I haven't seen much of that anyways.

Like Jenni said, "I know separation is the key. BUT- things do happen."   Which was shortly followed by, "Interesting phenomenon; if I'd turn them loose in the backyard and go inside, he always managed to mind his own business, ROFL."  My point being that we all, more or less, know that there are risks involved with having unrestrained dogs in contact with each other but that we all, more or less, still allow dogs to have that freedom.  Not to pick on Jenni, but on a different day she could just as easily be recounting how Caleb dispatched the Chihuahua to Doggie Heaven, and that would not be a laughing matter.  But if that instance became fodder for public scrutiny we could all agree, more or less, that Jenni was very irresponsible in allowing that situation to occur.  Well, as Jenni already acknowledged, "But-things do happen".

So I reckon everybody, more or less, is trying to do the best that they can.  Brings to my mind that old saying, "There but for the grace of God, go I."

Peace

SteveO

Steve-O,

Um, you really took some liberties with using MY post to justify your Mr. Rogers-like view on dog management. NO, it's not "do the best you can." It's 'DO THE BEST' OR DON'T DO IT. These dogs depend on US for their safety. I would never sell a pup to anyone with this mentality, though it probably makes you more popular and makes people think you're nicer. I'm not trying to win Miss Congeniality; I'm trying to manage dogs in a way that keeps them safe; I'm the one who wants multiples, so I'm the one responsible for making sure that they, in no way, suffer for my decisions.

I was speaking directly to Agar, about a "what-if" situation, while acknowledging that DOGS ARE SEPARATED. My entire post to HER, was addressing the "what if something happens like someone breaks out of a padlocked kennel or similar situation beyond your control" scenario- certainly NOT to say that anything other than COMPLETE RISK MANAGEMENT is the way to go. 

Are you in politics? You have a great skill for taking things out of context to render totally different messages. Those two dogs of mine, which you speak of, have not seen each other face to face, unrestrained in over 4 years. When Caleb was a pup, it was a different story. Widget has never had much time for puppies who want to play. He's not the playing sort. However, as Caleb got older and it became more apparent that these two simply were never going to see eye to eye due to ridiculous dominance on both parts and extreme possessiveness, the ONLY answer was to keep them 100% separated.  They are BOTH my dogs and I am responsible for BOTH of their well-being (both mental and physical) and safety.

In 7 years of owning multiple dogs (anywhere from 3-8 at a time, average), I have had exactly one real fight, and it was between a dog who was outside eating and a dog who got outside via a storm door he broke- certainly not an every day occurance. In fact, if you figure I rotate and exercise dogs 3-4x per day, 365 days per year, for 7 years, that's 8,942 times (at 3.5xday) and I have had one fight, that's over 99% successful control, which I think is about the best you can hope for when dealing with living creatures with minds of their own

Easy does it, Jenn!

CHILL GIRL.....

What you do with your dogs is your business.  I do not think I took what you said out of context and anybody so inclined could simply look at your post to see just what you said.  What you described was a situation in which the Chihuahua would instigate trouble with Caleb when you were present to intercede on his behalf, but that when left alone with Caleb there seemed to be no problem.  It's not beyond the power of imagination to think that something could have gone dramatically wrong in the same intervals of unsupervised time.

Mr. Rogers?  Yeah, Kinda....

Politickin?  Not so much, I pretty much call it the way I see it....

I got nothing to Peddle so I don't really need to create a false image of experience or authority that I don't really have.

Peace,

SteveO

Jenn,

I really wasn't trying to single you out to embarass.

Your comment that I quoted from was very convenient and spot on to illustrate the point that I really wanted to make which was that virtually anybody can find themselves in a horrible situation with very bad outcomes.  And I think that is very true and worth keeping in mind.  No less true for me than for you or anyone else.  That is all that I wanted to communicate.

SteveO

Steve, that WAS easy and I am perfectly chill.

You took parts of my post out of context and I won't sit idly by and have people read words that came from me being used to justify a "shit happens" type approach to dog management. Nothing personal, but I'll be damned if someone's going to read my words in your post and think that was the point I was trying to make or that I allow a 6lb-er to run around with a 100lb-er who might potentially kill him.

My only point---I brought up that scenario merely to point out that little dogs can be pistols, and that "prey drive" may not have had a damn thing to do with why that Poodle is dead. The case w/these two dogs happened because of mismanagement on many levels.

Not being next to them is also not the same as unsupervised. How would I even know how he acted if I wasn't watching? Also, mind you, Caleb was a PUPPY.  Observing from a window a few feet away is a bit different than leaving them alone in the room, the yard, etc. while you shower or go to work. Like YR, I run one male, one female, and whatever pups happen to be around. No reason to take a stupid risk and do anything else. When I get old, maybe I'll get some dogs I can let all run around together and sing Kumbaya, but for now, I'm happy rotating and separating.

.

Cool...

So you think there is a "one size fits all" approach to management of this particular risk, and that is the strategy that you now employ.  But it did take some experience to get there and whilst gaining that experience certain risks were undertaken to move you to your current position.

Well, based on the experience and strategies for managing multiple dogs that other experienced breeders have shared here some of them may have approaches not in line with yours.  Maybe I am a little too tolerant of the risks that they take with their dogs and perhaps I should chastise them for not being more careful.  But I won't.

Peace,

SteveO

How do you get what you wrote out of what I wrote???  What risks were undertaken to "move me to my current position?" How many dogs died in my supposed learning process? Where are you coming up with your theories about how and why I came to think the way I do? I allow puppies to run free w/any of my dogs. When they get old enough that they want to assert rank or that adults start seeing them as potential adversaries instead of pups, they're separated and moved into rotation. Basic, simple, logic and responsibility.

"Experienced breeders" who aren't in line w/my thinking may not like the same type dog. Pretty simple math, don't you think? Off the top of my head, I can think of 2 people who I know employ this same tactic to SAFELY manage dogs (something I think is our responsibility to them, and not a "choice")- they are Hans and YR, and coincidentally, due to things they've written, it seems like we also like the same kind of dog. Maybe there's something to this "no room for error approach."

I guess if it helps you sleep at night to not "chastise them [people who let their dogs run together irresponsibly] for not being more careful" and it makes you feel better to be nice, than good for you. I take the dogs' side on all matters pertaining to safety, care, and general well-being, so I cannot agree, and I will continue to call a spade a spade. Taking proper care of your dogs is not a choice; if you have dogs that can be a danger to each other, separate them. It is YOUR DUTY to keep each and every one of them safe. I can't be complacent about that. 

Jenn,

I think that there must be some kind of a disconnect between what you have been thinking and what you have been writing.  One way or another, it is not that big of a deal to me either what you think or what you do.

You seem to be Riding on a Pretty Tall Horse.

"Boy, Run and Fetch Me My Horse Gun,  An' Hurry!!!"

As Always, Peace

SteveO

I'm too much of a lazy ***** to read the rest of the posts...in relation to the first post: It's definitely the owner's fault. If it was a one-time deal and the dog died...maybe  I'd be more forgiving. But TWICE. OMFG!!!!! EVEN if the dog is extremely prey-driven and it's not a case of dog aggression, dominance, WHATEVER, after the first time you separate those dogs and keep them separated at all times OR you rehome one of them or, in this case, BOTH OF THEM. It's really not that hard to keep dogs separated.

I just don't relate to this apparent lack of commitment to keeping dogs safe. I feel like it's my responsibility, as their owner, to always be thinking of their safety and wellbeing. When I go for a walk in the neighborhood, I have some means to defend them from stray dogs and I have done so. When I am at home, I completely manage their time and access to one another, and my dogs aren't even interested in fighting each other!! My GSD is just too much for my collie, so I keep them separated. And that's just for her EMOTIONAL wellbeing.