Bad temperment - Page 1

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GSDfan

by GSDfan on 28 November 2004 - 01:11

Has anyone had experience in turning around a puppy with a very bad temperment. A newbie in my class has a 4 month old GSD rescue and is trying to socialize this psyco temperment out of him. I for one have always thought that there is nothing you can't work out with a dog, but this dog is something else. He has to be brought to class with a muzzle on (4 MONTHS OLD) If you sit next to him and look him in the eyes he growls, shows his teeth and staps at you. I can sit next to him (not looking him in the eyes) and feed him pieces of meat, but If I try to pet him he tries to bite me. I really have my doubts that he can be saved and fear when he reaches adult weight he's going to maul someone. The instructor suggested to the owners they may have put him down, but he refuses and wants to try and turn him around. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. btw the owners are novice dog owners and are in my opinion weak at handling him. I have tried to show them the right way to give this pup a correction and they have gotten better but are still weak. I feel this may also be contributing to the problem.

by Charlie Ivory on 28 November 2004 - 01:11

GSDfan, put him down! Why on earth would you want to put so much effort in to a dog that is sure as the sun is going to come up tomorrow bite sombody? Millions of perfectly well mannered dogs are put to sleep for no reason other then being born.You get a big E for effort but you should spend the time and effort on a dog that you will not have to worry mauling someone.......The dog is an accident waiting to happen

by patrishap on 28 November 2004 - 02:11

Hi Charlie - you well? Hi GSDfan, for explanation, I'd have look at temperament of owner! As Charlie said, not much future here!

by WolfGang on 28 November 2004 - 02:11

I have worked dogs like this and the best thing is to let someone with experience handle the puppy or there just isn't much hope...the others are right about there are so many dogs much less GSD's that are good and would be great for a first time handler but this is 2 strikes against the puppy already...(tough puppy and new handlers)...the puppy can have an attitude adjustment but it "will" never fix the problem just coat it...just like any other deep rooted problems...no matter how much training you do the basic temperament trait will always be there just the same...Good Luck!

by ALPHAPUP on 28 November 2004 - 02:11

hi -- just hold on for a bit -- first ands foremost -- this is a rescue dog -- well -- what is the history and the parentage of this dog ??you need an accurate history -- what is the parentage -- how was the dog reraised .. how was it intewracted with .. -- i can possibly help -- the dog is telling you something if you can sit next to hi, -- now for the snapping .. well how is the dog snapping ?? that is to say is it the touch that ellicits this behavior .. if that be he case you can change the dogs outlook about what it means to be touched -- that is easy -- there are differentiations to quality in refernce to the biting hewre -- many a GSD snaps when it is a puppy -- this behavior could just have been simply inadvertantly reinforced -- if the pup didn't like being touched . ..it just simply could have learned that this behavior was successful to not being/ getting touched -- again you can change the dog's outlook in this regards -- for example i had a female who i could not touch her mouth --- not so good for ring/ showing -- by the time i finished behavior modification she ran to me to get touched -!! now for the correction ...this is a double sided issue .. read this carefully ... you must teach the dog that bititng is Not an Acceptable behavior to solve it's problem BUT you must utilize a POSITIVE Negative reinforcement to end that behavior or else you may intensify the biting even more !! if you are to NEGATIVE with the [ i hate the word correction because if the dog is taught from the start the right choice behavior there is no further need for actiuon !!!] response i.e. a negative negative. .. for example if this is because the dog has low stress level you will only potentaite the dog being more stressed if you arte to negative. there are varing degrees .. you amy use your voice , somewhat firm but don't sound mean --- sorry for not being to instructive / poor enunciation here but this is diificult putting all /everything i know into verse -- my purpose is to let you know that one need not give uyp on this pup !! i suggest you work NOT WITH A DOG TRAINER [ most only know routine/ a mehtodololy ] but rather a behaviorist - dog trainer. it is also a learning situation for the owners and if they are not dedicated from the start this pup i fear will lose it's chance -- good luck -- you may email me [ is it ok on this site to give e-mails ?? ] TOPDOGRMI@aol.com -- good luck

GSDfan

by GSDfan on 28 November 2004 - 03:11

Thanks for the replies. Charlie, just to make it clear this isn't my dog! (I couldn't tell if you understood that by the way you worded your comment) I agree with you, if it was my dog I would have put it down. The owners of the dog are "bunny hugger" types, and were reluctant to even give the dog any correction at first let alone euthanasia. Alphapup, I don't know about the history of the pup, the man claims that he wasn't like this when he first got him though. He claims nothing traumatic has happened to him since he got him. This behavior started with his family members. The pup would even growl and snap at the husband when he approached his wife. I couldn't imagine not being able to trust my own dog! After three classes the man claims that the dog is okay with family now, but not visitors. I cannot tell for sure what the snaps and biting is like because the muzzle is on, but it is snarling and nasty. It is not always touch that illicits behavior, sitting next to him an making eye contact is also a trigger (he has evil eyes). I and the instructor have also emphasized the positive having the owner praise (for letting people sit next to him, or NOT growling when I put my hand up to his nose)or what ever else we can give him praise for, the pup obviously needs to feel that contact by strangers is a good thing and if he is constantly corrected when people are close it's not going to work. However I find myself constantly telling the owner WHEN he needs to praise and correct. Sometimes its like talking to a brick wall. Thanks for the help, I think I will suggest a behaviorist.

Sue B

by Sue B on 28 November 2004 - 04:11

Gsdfan, sad about the pup, sounds to me like a 'Fear Biter' and sadly will never be turned around. You say this owner got said pup from Rescue Kennel, do you know which one? Is it registered as a charity, or just some kennel setting themselves up as some bogus Rescue Centre to sell such poor specimens. If it is a reputable Rescue, then I say shame on them, they have lost their reputation. All animals should be placed with owners of suitable experience to deal with any problem animal has. This type of problem is certainly not one to be passed over to Novices, as proven, even you experts in training feel it to be a lost cause. What were they doing at this Rescue? Is this another case of a wolf in sheeps clothing. Tell them to take it back to the Rescue, do some investigating next time. Always remember Buyer Beware. Best Regards Sue B

by ALPHAPUP on 28 November 2004 - 04:11

wolfgand -- you are coorect -- you cannot change the temperament of a dog -- same as you cannot make a person what it is not -- BUT YOU CAN ENHANCE CHARACTER -- i cannot say for sure .. but my initial impression is that this may not be a dog problem as much as a people problem .. i would need to see the dog /the p[eople / and also the interaction.. that is the OVERALL RELATIONSHIP . seems the relationship is amiss for number one .. -- i still feel that he history in regards to learned and reinforced behavior plays a role , also as wolfgasng alluded to , the temperament of the pup , but also my impression too is that this is /was just too much [ good ? ] dog for inexperienced / novices !! this begins to touch upon the Relationship Aspect .. also my feeling from awkward conversation is that this dog does not need be put down , At least not at this point . -- of course we cannot let aggression go unchecked or anything related to this behavior unchannelled .. : a feedback response -- if you have trouble getting across to the owners .. then how cuniing do you think this pup is ...no wonder it won't let anyone lord it over him and it has it's way when it comes to being petted .. but again as previuosly discussed a dog's outlook can be changed .. behaviors aren't unlearned but we can change the way / context that the dog sees things in and the pup can learn acceptable new behaviors to displace the old . part in parcel is a rank problem here [ again the type of relationship is fundamental ]. - a little attitude adjustment to go along with change of outlook !!. SUE B -- you make a fantastic point about breeders or rescue people making sure the right pup as best as possible is place with the right folks in the right environment .. However SUE B -- no , no no ... fear biters can have their outlook [character enhanced ] we have done this amoungst some of our friends that have rescued/adopted dogs .. oh yes ..true ..some GSD's . that is whyy i take my time to converse at legnth here !! -- there is hope for this pup !! [ i guess i am pleading for him ] if someone is willing to put in the time and effort..--of cpourse the right someomne as you wisely point out --

by Blitzen on 28 November 2004 - 04:11

Ugh, what a horrible situation. Novice owners who obviously love this dog, a dog that could have been horribly mishandled at a very young age and a rescue manned by amateurs without enough smarts to not place such a dog with anyone but a trained behaviorist. It's a no win for everyone. I don't remember reading how the pup reponds to its family. If he tries to bite them, he is most likely beyond redemption. However, if he is not aggressive to them, they could keep him but need to understand that he is a liability and the general public must be protected from him at all times and as long as he lives. He will never be able to go to a dog park or Petco. I feel for them, too sad.

by Makosh on 28 November 2004 - 04:11

Its very easy to put a poor thing to sleep. Give him a chance!!! He is just 4 month old, he needs a lot of patience, and lots of work. Yes, he is inconvenient, but how can it be a reason to put him to sleep? When you try to touch him, try not to raise your hand above his head, that is threatenning to him. Try to pet him on his chest. And if this doesn't work - just leave him alone, and just give him treats, and dont't try to touch him untill he is comfortable around you. Don't try to chalenge him, or do things just to see "what if". He needs patience and respect in a certain way. He has been pushed around too much in his short life.





 


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