Sloping back...Why? - Page 3

Pedigree Database

Premium classified

This is a placeholder text
Group text

Premium classified

This is a placeholder text
Group text

Premium classified

This is a placeholder text
Group text

Premium classified

This is a placeholder text
Group text

by ALPHAPUP on 28 October 2004 - 07:10

well my response is ... the malinois and the shepherd although very similar and perhaps ions ago maybe from the same ancestral line -- they are a different dog --- they are similar in working attributes - but then again we can't have everything in a dog .. just like any one person can't be everything -- however i still feel as form changes then so doesn't the function --oh yes the GSD is a trotter -- but much more than that !!! it is the most as i often claim -- the most ALL_ROUND UTILITY / SERVICE DOG -now GSD are utilized for police work ... they should be agile and easily jump -- i feel to much of an overangultated rear sacrifices this -- GSD is a hearding dog ... more important to me that the dog has speed and endurance to work the fields all day . again do we sacrifice speed / endurance for a structure /type /form ?? and just because a dog may reach further , cover more ground with less energy - does this make for a better herder ?? reaching is not the same as being agile -- trotting is just that trotting -- we are not making race horses , although the cadence is 5 similar to a horse . gee a greyhound reaches ahead quite well, rear doesn't extend much but is fast ?? no endurance but for just a fast race. won't work the field all day . so i often contemplate form and function .. that is the key .-- i think breeders must understand the relationship of bones, tendons and muscles,and the intraction of all of them working together to produce the desired performance in a dog .. my response about in amrica bigger is better -- yup -- that seems to be the idea -- but my small GSD female 65 lbs will go like lighteneing onto a body suit , can't be so easily sidestepped for she is much to agile and fast for a decoy/helper -- rather have her like a sportscar than the rolls royce .. and she is show line , Fanto Hirshel grandaughter !! sometimes nice things come in small packages

by S Rogers on 28 October 2004 - 08:10

Have you ever heard? Most people when they come to you for advice come to have their own opinions strengthened, not corrected.

by Preston on 28 October 2004 - 10:10

DKiah, I disagree. American breeders have been breeding for dogs that appear to have more extreme front reach (they don't care if the front angulation or layback of upper arm or clavical is extreme (approaching 90 degrees). The american dogs which appear to have the most extreme side gait tend to lift and propel their front legs forward and actually have "pushed out fronts" usually accompanied by excessive length in the loin, long steep croup with a long lower thigh and sickle hocks which won't open up (fully extend). The excessive length stabilizes the dog and better absords the spring loaded discharge of the rear legs as they propel the dog forward (involving a lot of improperly vectored forces and much wasted energy). But as I have stated before, there are always exceptions (for example AKC Ch.Sel. We Love Du Chien's Rollins has correct, extreme sidegait, is not too long, is not sickle hocked, has correct front and rear angles, long properly angled croup, good coming and going. He has a great head and good coat. His temperament is good. For an American dog he is very good and could compete in any sv showring if he was titled and had pink papers. I usually can't stand almost all american dogs, but this one is an exception. He isn't perfect and could use a little thicker neck and more red color, but that's nitpicking. The dog is just plain good. I just don't like what is behind him, however.

by FerrumGSDs on 29 October 2004 - 02:10

Some new things are being mentioned, like the trade of of agility for stride lenght. I'd like to note that while I think agility is vital to both sheepdogs and working K9s etc. The only way to know if they are good, is to have a test for them. You can't weigh dogs or look at dogs their angles, and just know what they are capable of. I went to an agility seminar and asked for tips on how to stop my dog from marking his teritory in the tunnel. Actually, all the dogs were doing it. The guy answered "castrate him". The frisby Dog Video suggests you get a dog from the pound. The AKC also lets sterilized animals compete in obedience, and it seems that these sports have swayed from being tests of working ability to fun time activities for dog lovers. It also seems like all the rings have become their own purpose. AKC Champs are bred to produce more AKC Champs. V, SchH3 dogs are bred in hopes of getting a V or better, a VA, progeny. Someone mentioned on another forum that the market for pleasure horses changed in that people no longer wanted show ring and racetrack rejects, but instead horses bred specificaly for their preference and pleasure. Do you ever get puppy buyers who just want OFA and "the biggest one"? Say hello to Mr. Shiloh Shepherd. Best Wishes All, Jo-Ann

GSDNewbie

by GSDNewbie on 29 October 2004 - 07:10

I have been discussing this topic with a friend and these are somt of the ideas i have kicked around: first it seems to me when animals are bred for show as time goes on the fetures become more exagerated to the extreme! look at pictures of animals such as arabian horses, siamese cats, of course the GSDs, and Great Danes. Notice the differences over twenty year time. th arabian used to be a gorgeous work of art now the neck is thin and snakelike the dished face is now so deep in the middle looks like the bridge of someones nose looks like somone melted it out of shape its awful. siamese cats now look like aliens, the great danes have no substance and are afraid of their shadow the gorgeous broad hevy boned head and chest everyone thought so regal are gone the look like greyhound english mastiff crosses! I think folks get so use to seeing the gradual change that until the actually see what they have done they really dont notice. I dont know how to better explain what I am trying to get across? now for the GSDs: i dont believe they should be as straight and slanted downwards as ive seen on am bred but neither should they be humpbacked with hind feet tucked under them standing naturally either! seems the dogs are looking like a chest supporting almost dragging useless back legs almost in look of a muscular diseased human whose fighting muscular dystrophy or something useless legs that are just along for the ride! the hunch in the back is an attempt to bring the dogs rear end back into an engaged motion on too long of a frame with narrow unhealthy hip placement. These are just my ramblings and may be way off base but my life has been studying horses and dogs working and their bone structure and musculature support providing the movement. I know my past breeds moved differently but still who wants a dog that standing moves off with rear end waggling side to side before being pulled into action by the front? I very much enjoy your information and would love to hear more from you on these thoughts Jo-Ann? Again I am new to showline all my experience has been in working, functional and well conformed animals.

by FerrumGSDs on 29 October 2004 - 08:10

If you are new like your name, I think you are making excellent observations! and I also think you are on a great forum with lots of info. (try the search messageboard feature) I'll agree with you on the arabian horses. I find them awful, they are also uncomfortable and hard on the reins with their noses up in the air all the time. I'll also agree on the siamesse cats, always wanted one, until I saw how the stucture, head and body looked. (Like "starving" aliens) I saw the most increadable Danes at the 1996 world dog show. They were BIG bone, massive, straight legs, proper angles, square bodies, proportionate STRONG Heads. Just a real work of art! (wish I'd found out what country bred those I saw)Nothing like what you see in the AKC ads. On the GSD, Hip Placement is not affected at all. It always goes in the socket of the pelvis. You might be describing something else, like the angle of upper thigh, lower thigh, and hock. People sometimes confuse angulation and ligamentation also. An animal can have alot of angulation and good ligamentation. The thing is, you have to have very good ligamentation (better than Good)to funtion with alot of angulation. Another way to put it is: heavy angulation will reveal weak ligamentation more than if the animal had less angulation. Still, I wish that the GSDCA did have at least a simple obstacle course with A frame and jumps maybe even a wall so the dogs had to prove themselves on it in order to justify their angulation is funtional. Even if the Dog is clean comming and going, with a spectacular sidegait,and you want to argue that it is a herding breed and it passes the AD and the HT, It should be able to effortlessly hop up into the back of a full size pickup, when it is time to go home. On the slope they have when stacked, I have had German dogs who are level in topline in motion, and you can teach them to stand placing all their weight on the front and leave one hind leg under the pelvis, with the other streached behind and even get them to bend the joints in the rear. all you need to teach them is a toy or bait, and lots of praise and patience. them they will do it on their own and look at you you like "were is my prize". I also really dislike seeing dogs overstreched. Yes, over time they get "used" to seeing what we see as extreme. It starts to look ordinary, and animals with more start looking "better" to them. It even happened to me. I video tapped the first GSD specialty I went to, and the audio recorded my comments. Years later I came across the tape, and played it. The dog looked normal to me now, but I heard my sighs on the tape "ohh wow, that is sooo overangulated". I also got used to very strait standing and comming/going shepherds. I see cow hocked- east west front, working dogs, police dogs, herding dogs and I respect them and the feelings of their owners and breeders, but inside, I go "icky" if I glance back at their legs. your not rambling at all. Best Wishes, Jo-Ann

GSDNewbie

by GSDNewbie on 29 October 2004 - 18:10

Thanks Jo-Anne!!! Yes I am on my first showline GSD pup. I was raised with police Gsds growing up in the seventies and our family had old style heavy boned gorgeous Great danes and you may have guessed it arabian horses and siamese cats lol. You can still get the applehead old style siamese have one now no alien in my house! I love beauty but have to stick with form and function would love to see them do it all I have seen couple breeders dogs that I believe have best of both worlds and I would love to some day know enough to help in that. My pup is gorgeous but then maybe im just biased lol she has some drive not as much as I am used to and would like but it does exist. I love and agree with your idea of making them pass physical requirements also for showline it would do wonders to strengthen the breed!! Most of my observations came from watching all I could and yes this site included and every dog show I could. I wanted to know before bought my pup! I still don't know how far I will get but I will enjoy the experience I am having hard time finding a schutzhund group in my new state that does not cringe and say no thanks when I inquire and they find I have showline or that I wish to work her myself and not hire a trainer to take money. I am truly apalled at the dog problems in my new state it is full of oportunist, byb and puppy mills of the worst kind. I am in Pa from way of va beach va and I cannot believe the breeding ignorance I have found here. I am sure there are good folks Im just having hard time finding them. I have been greatly helped by friends I made on this site such as Sunshine and Blitzen not to forget also Somone who makes me laugh and tells it straight Charlie who I also count in the bunch weather he like it or not! I love your posts Jo-Ann and will be watching and learning thank you for the lesons!

by Caroline on 30 October 2004 - 11:10

Jo-Ann, Thank you so much for your contributions. I have learned a lot from this post and it has answered my question in many ways. I am also new in the GSD world although in England and it seems like a minefield from where I stand. I'm very grateful for those on this forum who are so dedicated to the breed and have knowledge and integrity.





 


Contact information  Disclaimer  Privacy Statement  Copyright Information  Terms of Service  Cookie policy  ↑ Back to top