Where did the US GSD go wrong? - Page 1

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by maxislooking on 22 October 2004 - 22:10

I was watching a National AKC show and when the top GSD came on stage and I was shocked. It appears that the US took the SV standard and twisted it. This dog had a sloping topline that resembles a SV GSD when it is tracking-pulling, but the dog was standing there unstacked. It looked like almost a two or three inch drop from the withers to the hips without the dog being stacked at all. When the dog was stacked the line was so exaggerated that I wondered how it could stand up. No wonder there are so many problems. Besides the obvious differences in breeding regulations what are the differences between the two and how do we fix them?

by SGBH on 22 October 2004 - 23:10

What's there to fix? They are two distinct breeds. I doon'g see how you can "fix" that breed and bring it back into standard with the "German Shepherd".

by SGBH on 22 October 2004 - 23:10

What's there to fix? They are two distinct breeds. I don't see how you can "fix" that breed and bring it back into standard with the "German Shepherd" breed. Let's just accept it as two seperate breeds, and that eleminates the argument.

by Makosh on 23 October 2004 - 00:10

Some differences are such: Am. GSDs are thin boned, thin headed, sloping strait topline, screwed angulation, chest is too deep (leads to bloats), etc. You saw it yourself. The only way to “fix” this is to spay them all and to start over. But that is utopia of course. Charlie Ivory, why do you say "because of people like Maxi"? It seems he/she at least realizes that there is a problem. Unfortunately there are many who think that Am GSD is gorgeous :(

by Charlie Ivory on 23 October 2004 - 00:10

Why do I say people like Maxi? Just click on her name and look at most of her posts.She clearly knows nothing about the German Shepherd and proves that to me everytime I read something she writes

PINERIDGE

by PINERIDGE on 23 October 2004 - 01:10

The Americans think they have a RIGHT to change the standard to fit their current whims !! We have gone through dogs too big, bitches too small, ears too soft, hearts too weak -- feet - Oh, God, don't get me started on bad feet -- and those pasterns -- YUK !! The "big breeders" have actually talked themselves into their own rationale -- it's the 90's the breed changes -- Geeze - tell that to the Afghan people -- what ? they're working on 5,000 - years and you can still tell their Affies -- Somewhere, sometime -- It actually started with LANCE OF FRAN-JO -- somebody got confused, because a blind judge put the dog up (when he could walk) and they decided more was better, so the inbreeding (and the long-bone disease) and everything else followed - They still had plenty of bad hips back then -- and then Brothers and Sisters (accidentally) got to each other - and oh, my, aren't the pup's beautiful - let's make some more like that. Oh, they died of Heart Murmmers - too bad - try again. Maybe a couple with live next time. One very well known breeder told me (at a NATIONAL) that "we don't care if their ear's don't go up all the way -- THEY DON'T RUN ON THEIR EARS !! And, that, my friends is the mentality that got us to where we are today. Then I picked out an Open Bitch from the Class and thought she should take First -- My "mentor" breeder (ex-friend) said - quite seriously - Oh, well, you would pick that bitch - she has very CORRECT movement - That's not what will win here !!! (Not extreme enough !! Take a look at the 2004 US GRAND VICTOR - He is the poster boy for the slide topline !! He is the result of generation after generation of some of the most extreme side-gaiting dogs in this country today and he is exactly what the GSDCA rewards (with their top honor And not all of his relatives lived to a ripe old age of 12 to 14 I can assure you. But that can happen anywhere, right ?

PINERIDGE

by PINERIDGE on 23 October 2004 - 01:10

The Americans think they have a RIGHT to change the standard to fit their current whims !! We have gone through dogs too big, bitches too small, ears too soft, hearts too weak -- feet - Oh, God, don't get me started on bad feet -- and those pasterns -- YUK !! The "big breeders" have actually talked themselves into their own rationale -- it's the 90's the breed changes -- Geeze - tell that to the Afghan people -- what ? they're working on 5,000 - years and you can still tell their Affies -- Somewhere, sometime -- It actually started with LANCE OF FRAN-JO -- somebody got confused, because a blind judge put the dog up (when he could walk) and they decided more was better, so the inbreeding (and the long-bone disease) and everything else followed - They still had plenty of bad hips back then -- and then Brothers and Sisters (accidentally) got to each other - and oh, my, aren't the pup's beautiful - let's make some more like that. Oh, they died of Heart Murmmers - too bad - try again. Maybe a couple with live next time. One very well known breeder told me (at a NATIONAL) that "we don't care if their ear's don't go up all the way -- THEY DON'T RUN ON THEIR EARS !! And, that, my friends is the mentality that got us to where we are today. Then I picked out an Open Bitch from the Class and thought she should take First -- My "mentor" breeder (ex-friend) said - quite seriously - Oh, well, you would pick that bitch - she has very CORRECT movement - That's not what will win here !!! (Not extreme enough !! Take a look at the 2004 US GRAND VICTOR - He is the poster boy for the slide topline !! He is the result of generation after generation of some of the most extreme side-gaiting dogs in this country today and he is exactly what the GSDCA rewards (with their top honor And not all of his relatives lived to a ripe old age of 12 to 14 I can assure you. But that can happen anywhere, right ?

by DKiah on 23 October 2004 - 03:10

One very well known breeder told me (at a NATIONAL) that "we don't care if their ear's don't go up all the way -- THEY DON'T RUN ON THEIR EARS !! How interesting, I heard almost the exact same statement several years ago when I commented on a Grand Victor whose ears were spinning like propellers....only it came from a judge at a club meeting!!!

by Preston on 23 October 2004 - 07:10

First of all, the american GSD "top ranked show dogs" are very incorrect to the standard (akc, fci or sv, take your pick). The so called top winners at the GSDCA national specialty show look impressive side gaiting under a tight lead. Slow motion analysis at 1/1000 second of most of these american gsds shows major construction and movement faults. Foot time, weight transfer shows as rumba or waves of movement in the muscles and flesh of the dogs bodylines, all these show improper propulsion, improper construiction and improper balance. Anyone who knows the standards and has good visual perception can see the steep croups, long lower thights, long backs and long loins, pushed out fronts so that the upper arm appears to be an upward projection in line with the lower front leg, hare feet with thin pads, weak pasterns, lack of bone and thin necks, deficient pigment, lack of sex type, including loss of masculinity. There are always exceptions. I know of some american gsds who would fool any sv judge into thinking they are of w.german breeding (even in their bitework). Problem is that there has ben way too much linebreeding off of Lance of Franjo, who was himself a very correct dog with good movement and an unbelievably potent producer of good dogs. The american breed was develped using w. german import stock of high regard. What went wrong is this: Most American breeders who show at the specialty shows do not really know the standard or what confirmation should be, and do not understand correct construction and correct movement (which can only show under a loose lead).

by Preston on 23 October 2004 - 07:10

part 2: In the american specialty akc showring, winning is everything and judged almost 100% on sidegait on a tight lead, with the most extreme appearing rated the best. Problem is that many of the these dogs will lift and pad in front which can fool everyone but the most knowledgeable. With a long steep croup and a long lower thight, there is a wind up or spring loading in the rear which provides a powerful release making the movement appear excellent, but actually generates a lot of wasted motion and wrongly vectored forces, and shows bad foot timing of the rear feet compared to the front. This ring competition for this extreme appearing but terribly incorrect "tight lead" sidegait is so extreme that either you play it out to the max or you never win anything. Once you enter this line of action and become committed to it, you gain membership in a subcultural system with various level of status which are associated with winning, the more winning, the more "respect you get". To change you thinking, or to breed differently immediately results in no more winnong, being shunned by those at the top of the status pyramid and complete alienation. It is this subcultural social system and the key values its members are comitted to that keeps it in existence, a sort of perpetual treadmill. There are a few who have imported great dogs from w.germany and competed and won in this system, but very few. Most american gsd akc specialty judges think they know what good and correct construction and sidegait is but they really don't and view the correct, balanced top w.german V1 or VA dogs as "short steppers". Remember, however that the german sv doesn't promote proper movement either. Offlead movement is not the same as loose lead because it engenders restraint, holding back by the dog. The pull-pull-pull showing methodology tends to build up muscling that inhibits the dogs ability to move correctly, even if built correctly. But the sv breed wardens and experienced judges and breeders often can correctly ascertain correct movement y noting when correct structure occurs (sort of a back door way of arriving at the right conclusion). The w.german gsds suffer from their own set of terrible problems like steep croups, carp, roach back, rump rolling up, long loins, badger heads, etc., etc. For these things the w. germans need to waqk up and remember what von Stephanitz taught and focus in on what the standard really teaches about backs.





 


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