SchH Grip Question - Page 1

Can some of experienced SchH trainers explain to me why calm grip is considered a plus? One of my dogs have very calm grip, and another will try to “shake her pray” a lot (but doesn’t let go). I also know a dog that will growl while on the sleeve. I personally like the two last behaviors better, because they show some emotion/aggression. But why SchH trainer at our club prefers a dog with the calm grip? He always says “Fooey” when the dog growls on the sleeve. Thanks.

Good question Makosh. I wondered myself and asked my trainer because my male although very willing to fight is mouthy on the sleeve. I was told they want the calm grip which proves he is clear in the head and when it comes time to out, the dog has less problems. I understood it to be more a technique problem than a lack in the dog. With a good helper, I understand that the dog gains experience, looses his hectic behavior and the mouthiness (which is not a sign of insecurity, but lack of technique) will improve. My dog also does not like to carry the sleeve. He will drop it out as soon as he can to reinitiate the game. Also something not desired. But, the same dog shows regardless of place or helper a natural aggression that is center to his being. As I understand it, we do not have a confidence problem, just a technique problem which may/may not work itself out. I was also told that growling in a shepherd on the sleeve is a "no,no". When I went to another place, they said that however my dog growled differently, not from lack of confidence but because he just was Alpha and was going to win no matter what. That the dog simply was great in protection. You figure? I hope a good trainer responds to your question but I also hope that my own experience has helped you too.

As I understand it think a "calm grip" means having a good full mouthfull of sleeve and not mouthing, chewing or biting just with the front of the mouth. I also would think its good if the dog shakes the sleeve as well, but keeps the full grip. I'm not sure about growling.

The answer to your question is as follows: A dog which growls while on the sleeve is nervous. It is worried which is why it is growling. It is a kind of defensive behavior which shows it senses a threat and is frightened. However, your helper's response of calling out "phooey" or whatever, is misguided and actually harmful. First of all the helper is not supposed to be the person giving the dog any commands otherwise the dog will become dependent on the helper doing it and during a trial when the helper cannot give them, he will not perform properly. So tell your helper to keep quiet. Secondly, the dog is not going to be able to tell why he or she is being reprimanded. Here is the picture. The dog is on the sleeve, he is holding on gripping, and he is growling, so then the helper screems phooey--what is the dog to make of it? Does it mean get off the sleeve, stop gripping or what. Probably the last thing the dog is going to think of is to stop growling. It would be far better if you walked up to the dog while on the sleeve and started calmly stroking him on the sides say good boy in a soothing voice which would signal to him that everything is okay. In the final analysis, growling on the sleeve while undesireable is not as serious as mouthing the sleeve and I would not go out of my way to try and fix it because something else may go wrong. Mouthing on the sleeve is also a nervous behavior showing the dog is not confident. It is not a sign of aggression (just as growling isn't. Aggressive animals do not growl, they just go in and bite, no fuss no muss no warning. They are not worried) Mouthing must be fixed. There are a variety of ways that this can be done. The easiest and least stressful for the dog is to have him run around in a circle immediately after the bite. You must keep its head up though while this goes on. This forces the dog to hold on to the sleeve. If the dog starts to mouth he will drop the sleeve, i.e. lose his prey. (remember, keep his head up so he can't lunge for it after he drops it. He drops it, he loses it.) After a while, most dogs learn to hold on. If the mouthing is taking place while the sleeve is on the helper, than the helper must run with the sleeve on. NOT AT THE DOG (remember the dog is nervous) so the helper must run away from the dog escaping. This will force the dog to hold on or else he loses the prey. When he loses the prey, take him off the field and say, "oh you lost it, too bad etc etc" and put him in his cage. Bring back out a few minutes later and see if its better. If not, take a step backwards in your training and put him on a backtie and have your helper work on grip. If he doesn't know how to do this in a non threatening way, get a new helper. Lastly, shaking the prey, i.e. the sleeve violently while its on the ground is not mouthing. Its perfectly okay and even desireably according to no less an expert than Dr. Helmut Raiser who says as much in his book Der Schutzhund.

Nicely said Kloss,Soothing calm strokes on the dogs head from the nose back is also reassuring to the dog,the dog is less apt to turn to see what is touching him on the side and possibly come of the bite?

Thank you, everyone. Klossbruhe, you are awesome. Please do not disappear from this messageboard! The dog that growls is not mine, so I don't feel like telling them what to do, especially because the helper/trainer is a very experienced one (doesn’t necessarily mean very good), and trains/competes on a very high level, and I am kind of new. Plus he is intimidating not only to my dog, but to myself as well, and all attempts to argue with him bring nothing but humiliation. However I have no choice of helpers/trainers now and here.

Klossbruhe, where are you located?

In the Chicago area

Oh, that makes me really sad! You are almost a world away.