"Tiffany / Wal-Mart" breeding

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by Sunsilver on 06 July 2007 - 17:07

Hve to laugh Theresa, your experience is all too typical, from what I've heard! (I'm not a breeder myself, but know people who are.)

God bless you, people like you are the backbone of the pedigree dog world!

by ziegenfarm on 06 July 2007 - 17:07

i guess what i would like to see is more breeders giving full guarantees.......if the buyer is unhappy with the dog for any reason; they either refund or exchange. this would include health issues, hips, elbows, etc as well as temperament and working ability. i don't think anyone should be stuck with a dog that doesn't work for them. that situation is equally bad for the dog. if he is in a home where he is not appreciated for what he is, then he would be better off in another home where he could acheive his potential. its all about compatibility. the right person with the right dog and the correct training for the two of them. if any of those elements is missing, the situation is a failure. better to find the right combo than to keep fighting a losing battle. in order to offer that sort of guarantee, i would expect breeders to charge upwards of 1500 dollars for a pup. there seems to be plenty who will charge high prices, yet not stand behind their guarantees. i feel that if an unconditional guarantee cannot be offered, then the breeding probably should not take place. by the same token, i would be leery of a breeder who is reluctant to take one of his own dogs back. i would have to ask why???

pjp

by Ninja181 on 06 July 2007 - 17:07

Very good thread!

I think you really need to know the "buyers" to properly follow the senario.

First there are around 43,000 AKC registered GSDs a year. So guessing the average one lives 10 yrs. Adding in other country registrations etc., it is safe to say we have in excess of 500,000 GSD in the USA. The people that frequent this site are very knowledgeable, many breeders, trainers and people that own GSDs as a hobby. They are well aware of training, titling, and breeding. How many dogs in this country are actually titled? How many compete in shows? Even if that number were as high as 10,000 that is only 2% of the public. So maybe 98% of the people are under the assumption that hey "AKC" "Registered Dog" I'm getting a quote "purebred" why spend $1,200 when I can get that quote "purebred" for $200 to $400?

If my figures are wrong please point them out. But I think the general public is just not up to speed on training, titling and breeding.

The professional breeders on this site could prove or disprove my theory just based on the questions they field from the general public.

by ryken1 on 06 July 2007 - 17:07

I am a hobbyist, I do not count how much I spent in time and money because I know producing quality dog as a goal in breeding is a loosing practice. I am happy seeing satisfied and proud new of owner of my dog. that is my consulation.

by D.H. on 06 July 2007 - 18:07

Ziegenfarm, if puppy buyers would actually listen to breeders and their advice about which puppy would be a good fit for them, then some sort of guarantee towards a good fit might apply. However, the breeder can only do so much and go by what the buyer tells them, most of which is half-truths at best. People come across as already being experienced or having big goals and being committed to them. Reality proves otherwise. The puppy buyer always knows best anyways and if a breeder makes a recommendation it is met with suspicion. The fact that just about every breeder ends up spending countless hours on the phone with such a previously super experienced and knowledgable person proves that. Quality homes are hard to find and more often than enough people will put on a gong show to appear as such a quality home. Buyer responsibility include presenting the buyer situation properly. Once that happens, a guarantee can happen too.
You can also not guarantee something that you cannot look inside of. If the buyer wants to pay for a pre-purchase examination that will cover everything under the sun, fine. If you go and buy a car, YOU have to take it into the shop for a pre-purchase check up, not the seller. That is widely accepted. With dogs though, it seems everything is expected from the seller/breeder, and very little attention is being paid to buyer responsibility. If buyers would be more attentive, selective, educated, and realistic about their purchase, then there would be far fewer problems with the dogs they purchase. But, dog purchases for most people are emotional impulse purchases. Not well thought out purchases.
Dogs have litters for a reason. The reason being that a multitude of the pups born are redundant and would not make it into adulthood, never mind to reproduction. We are already cheating nature big time by having nearly all pups survive, reach adulthood and many go into reproduction, have done so for centuries and now we are not willing to accept the responsibility this practise has brought with it. Breeders cannot cull, that is inhumane. But breeders have to take back crap? Crap that the buyer chose to begin with. And more often than not a pup was not crap when it left the breeders home but has been ruined at the buyers - be it that the pup got into things that made it sick, that it was not housed, raised, fed and kept properly. That is was not socialized properly. Etc. The influence the breeder has on the future development is minimal once the pup has left the breeders home. Buyers balk at our contract stipulations for example to feed a certain food! Though no one raises an eye brow about the stipulation to put super in your gas tank instead of regular. If you put regular in instead of super your warranty no longer applies should the car break down because of it. No one balks at that either. Its a given. If you put in the wrong fuel, well then you are called a dumb a** by your peers and will be laughed at. You tried to save a few pennies and now you have to pay the price and the laugh is on you.
cont...

by D.H. on 06 July 2007 - 18:07

If you feed the wrong food to the dog it was the breeders fault that it did not develop properly though, never the buyers fault. If you experiment and open the housing of your appliance that is not working properly your warranty no longer applies. Or if you were reckless with it, the warranty also does not apply. If you wreck your car, you need to have insurance in order to get it fixed, but dog insurance is too expensive. Most vet bills are considered too expensive though everyone accepts that their new car has to be taken in for regular expensive maintenance check-ups where fluids need to be replaced, parts that naturally wear and tear need to be replaced. That is all accepted, we need our comfy transportation after all. A dog needs to go to the vet and the world ends. We do not have maintenance free anything out there, so don't expect a dog to be it either. Reckless in my books includes the buyer needed to fulfill his need/wish to take a growing pup jogging or moutain biking. Inadequate food, houseing, exercise, knowledge, response time in case of emergency (ie writing on a message board 'I think my dog is dying what should I do til the morning when the vet office opens because I am too cheap to take it to the emergency vet, plus then I can no longer be in front of the computer and read about all the good advice from people who know about as much as I do). The day buyers change, that is the day dogs can realistically come with a better 'warranty'.
BTW - I hope you had your spouse checked before you committed to any long term relationship and even more so before you considered reproduction. The day will come when your children will sue you for improper and inconsiderate (can you say selfish, self motivated, your love choice after all) and uneducated reproduction, upbringing, feeding, exercise, education, houses etc choices for them.

by ziegenfarm on 06 July 2007 - 18:07

DH,

it seems as though you did not read my entire post, but only about the first 3 lines before you got on the keyboard. had you read the part about the dog's potential, the right combination of handler/dog/training, you would realize that i was saying the same thing as you. just not as wordy.

pjp

by D.H. on 06 July 2007 - 18:07

Ziegenfarm, I had read the whole post, just re-read it again and cannot see where your post and mine say the same. Maybe you should have been a more wordy ;o).

by angusmom on 06 July 2007 - 18:07

as a "pet" owner, i know that i would love to see "pet" quality dogs offered for $500-1000 from reputable breeders. altho we got a very nice deal on our pup, the majority of pups our breeder charges range from ~$1500 on up. but, the pups receive the same care, shots, socialization, whether show, competition or pet, so i don't see how to separate them by price. maybe breeders could offer a small refund of the initial price when pet owners show proof of spay/neuter? i do know that when the day comes when we're looking for another pup, we'll go with our breeder and pay what we need to for a good "pet" pup, even if the deal isn't as good as the last.

by EMTTGT06 on 06 July 2007 - 19:07

Would this be an option? It seems most notable kennels already have some sort of contract regarding puppies. What if it was added in the contract that the pup must be "fixed" within X number of days. Or a percentage refund when conducted, something to that sort. Would that work or be out of the question?

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