List GSD practise/training day KNPV 8-4-2017 - Page 5

Not snark....fact....show lines ARE IPO dogs! Fact!!!!
You can't use the title to claim one group, and disavow the same title to distance yourself from other...HYPOCRISY...pure and simple!

Dogs don't pass titles through sperm....they pass genetics.

Personally, not distancing myself from Showlines. It is what it is. I know how they came to be. I lived through it. I also know about midnight trials, corruption, bought titles, switched dogs.. etc.

There is a reason why dogs have to be identified and Judges got barred, why we are using microchips and dna to identify parents etc.

IPO can be as easy or hard as you want it to be. That doesn't change the fact, that all of the listed KNPV dogs come from IPO stock.

I was there when working lines were set a year behind in the Koerung because they favored the Showlines and wanted to push the Showlines forward. This wasn't IPO. It was the Martin brothers and greed that created the Showline. Not IPO itself. There was no IPO back then. Back then it was the SCHH title!

 

 

BlackMalinois...do you have total statistics on male vs. female titles in KNPV? Since you decided to make that statement about female GSDs, I'd like to compare that to the total numbers of dogs titled in KNPV. Just wondering what the success rate of any female is in the sport.

 

I would also like it to be some real numbers, not just your own anectdotal evidence like you've provided in your original statement about female GSDs, "Also an important fact there only a few GSD  females in history of KNPV who  are good enough to get certification most GSD females are not good enough....most of times you will see males."

 

Sorry, that isn't a fact, it's your own anecdotal opinion that I'm sure will easily be debunked once your provide real statistics on how many bitches overall are titled to a PH1 level.

im kind of disagreeing with a lot in this topic but
bearenfangs, how many stoffelblick and korbelbach dogs do we see in todays IPO podiumdogs, those dogs would be way to much for today IPO points
BM is talking about gardefense and brandevoort, but if I would name one serious breeder in KNPV it would be heukske who has own bloodline, going back to serious older lines, like gildo and old tiekerhook(way different than new) and some old czech and DDR stuff, one should at least agree that todays IPO dog is a different dog then lets say an 1980 IPO dog, the same as todays showline is a different dog than an 80ies showline

dogs from line of Rakker ard hard and stubborn dogs, nothing like what is used in IPO now, Marco hollander did hell of a job to win dutch nationals with CHIP who was like that too and also his offspring

many strong lines go back to DDR stuff that you also dont want to go to IPO with today

because ANY german shepherd needs to get a SchH or an IPO title to be allowed to breed doesnt make them all IPO dogs, but many of today dogs(GSD) in KNPV are not any different than todays dogs in IPO

Like I said genetics! The genetics of KNPV dogs go back to small segment of " IPO " dogs, and frankly the majority of IPO dog's genetics do not transfer to KNPV. Some older lines and a very few current IPO dogs genetically. So to intimate that KNPV breeders use IPO dogs is limited at best, and definitely not prevalent.

I know the dogs from back then, and I know the dogs from today.

They are actually not that different. At least not the good ones are. Back then, the dogs that offered themselves early on and were biddable, a lot of times got "gassed" and "burned" because people didn't give them time to mature.

The dogs from the past are really not that different. Heck there are certain very popular dogs that you can find in every pedigree where people took bets to see whether or not the dog would get through the protection phase and you would never guess which dog I'm actually talking about.

Personally, I've got dogs that are just like our old dogs with a bit more bidability but just as hard and tenacious and with just as much fight.
There are some seriously nice dogs out there, you just have to recognize them.

Also, anyone who knows me, knows that I will breed with a nice dog that overall fits the program whether or not they are titled, I don't really care. What I do care about is that I see the good and the bad and the ugly in the dog. That I know the dog, get to work with the dog and observe the dog.

Thats what I care about most. A title itself is not something I consider breedworthy in itself because I know the truth about IPO. But it doesn't mean that there are no longer good dogs. You have to do your homework just like you did in the past.

If you think there weren't any "made" dogs in the past, you are very mistaken. There were just as many "made" dogs then than there are now. Those dogs were sold very quickly and most of the time, came overseas.\

 

As for Podium Dogs:

Have you actually looked at some of the pedigrees?

Bolle anyone?

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2126959-bolle-ja-na-ka

Have you looked at the combinations that Staatsmacht, Eisernen Kreuz and Fegelhof are using and how successful these dogs are?

Nick, Ina, Betzi and Orly are always in there along with Karn, Darro, Orla, Arek, Gildo... etc. of course there is more in there than just these dogs, but Nick can almost always been found, and so can be Karn and Darro and of course Orla.

Those are some serious dogs. And those dogs have always been and are still highly successful.

Same for the 2016 IPO WUSV Winner.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2553421-qvido-vepeden

Arek, Gildo, Umsa...Fero, Askia, Troll and frickin Basko Flughafenrand who put almost every single handler into the Hospital!

Training methods have evolved so it's easier to handle these type of dogs. There is no longer as much conflict as there was in the past because we can be very clear with dogs, give them clear signals.

Are there shitty dogs in IPO and has it turned into a sport where even Labradors can title? YES!

Does that mean there are no longer strong dogs around? NO! Because once you get up there in the levels, you need a good dog, and a good dog is still a good dog!

Harysson Ad Gur also has Gildo (not linebred on him though) and a myrida of other very strong dogs including Cezch

Linebred on Falko and Fero in the 5th 6th and 7th generation

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2350858-harysson-adgur

 

Pablo van Hamersslag doesn't have any Gildo but tell me this isn't a super nice pedigree with a lot of strong producers in it.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2568096-pablo-van-hamersslag

Oh and he was bred in the netherlands and has a dutch number.

 

bearenfang have t disagree quite a bit, on the pedigrees and dogs you bring up, naturally if you look back in most dogs pedigrees you will find the dogs you mention somewhere, Bolle is a strong dog, credits to Dirk for bringing a dog like that so far, but most of todays IPO handlers would stay away from dog like that, and I would point out some strong dogs closer up in his pedigree than MOST of the dogs you mention, about qvido, I know most dogs close up in his pedigree and alot of their offspring and wouldnot compare that in anyway with those older type dogs, not saying bad dogs but modern type sportdogs but if you take any pedigree back for five or six generations everybody is right and everybody is wrong, therefor I would look at a dog himself and his parents and grandparents maximum, or Fero and Tom are to blame for every top dog AND every shitdog in the world

Pablo hamersslag has strong motherlines on both sire and dam going back to good DDR lines, dont think you mean Xanthippe but that was very influental female line in Netherlands to produce strong dogs

Actually, a lot of people want that type of dog but can't handle it. There is a wee bit of a difference.

A producer is a producer no matter the sex.

Look, if my dad says he'd do it a bit different it means something. A lot of people couldn't handle the strong dogs back then either. It always took a certain type of handler to handle these dogs.

I'm so sick of the doomsday predictions. We have some damn good dogs out there. Strong dogs, just like in the past, maybe more biddable than they used to be in the past but why is that a bad thing? Thank GOD they are more biddable. I don't need a dog like Gildo who will fight you every damn step of the way on the field.