Working to get my dog to get more serious - Page 27

Apple,

I want both - not just a sports dog, but a dog who can apply the training from the sports world to real world. I personally have decided not to use food to train and off late have removed the ball also as a tool to focus. Now I use the ball as a reward AFTER he has done what was expected from him. Yes, he does not have the precision and the flashy ness but he is doing it just with my voice commands. Once done we have a great play session, which is a reward for both of us. When you say your dog is in drive when he comes out does it mean he is pulling like crazy and almost out of control. I personally don’t like that. My dog when he comes out is more like a coiled spring ready to unleash. This way I can better control him and his frustration of being under control helps in the intensity. Nevertheless, his aggression comes out only when he feels pressure. He will take the fight to the decoy then.

Emoryg, as usual great post. My dog (along with our other dog) are family, they live in the house, hang out with us, watch TV, sleep in our bedroom, and go on vacations and always go to our second home. We will be leaving on our 10-11 hour drive next week and they will sleep most of the way there with 1 bathroom break. I completely agree with you there.

Keep on posting..

Apple,

One more point, I have also switched to training him without a prong collar when we do the out or a harness/flat collar during bitework. I noticed that was associating the equipment that he was wearing with certain aspects of training. I just use his regular collar (martingale) and leash which is through the dead ring and a long line through the live ring. So now when I give the out command I do it from a distance and give him a correction if he is not clean. Trust me he knows the out command but he hates it because his possessiveness is a little over the top. Also, I noticed that when I had the prong on him he knew he was going to get the out command and would do it fine. I don’t want that I want him to out using the same equipment he wears when we go for a walk or to the mall so he knows what I tell him is what he must do not what he is wearing. This approach might not be ideal and might take me longer but that’s the route I am going.

I’m flattered you guys enjoyed the stories. 

Hundmutter, I am not sure on the discrepancies of the police dog in the states you mention.  If it is referring to the roles of the k-9 team in the department, this may help clear it up.  Then again, it may only confuse things. 

As you know, in the US there are many forms of government from the feds all the way down to small municipalities.  Most police dog units work out of the smaller governing bodies such as city and county.  The feds and state police also have their own programs.  The counties and cities can vary greatly with the role of the police dog and handler.  I gave one example of my work within a county and a city agency.  Some departments have teams similar to how I worked, where the main function was working the police dog.  In other agencies, the handler may also be performing his regular duties as a police officer.  I say police, because in my jurisdiction the police officer is the law enforcement body, but it refers to any law enforcement officer such as sheriff deputy, constable, etc.  Sizes vary with some agencies employee hundreds, even thousands of officers.  Others may have two members, perhaps just one.  Bigger agencies tend to have the funding and means needed to maintain the k-9 units.   Smaller departments may face a financial burden bringing on a k-9 team.  I would have k-9 handlers come train with me who had to purchase their own dog, build their own kennels, and pay for their own certifications and seminars.   I have great admiration and respect for those officers. 

Some teams multitask and have the K-9 doing patrol type functions and other duties like narcotics or explosives detection.  And then to further mud the water, some dogs work within different divisions of their departments.  The county I worked for has dogs embedded within the EOD unit (bomb dogs) and some are assigned to the narcotics division, while other are attached to divisions working with the street cops.  They all have different functions.  That county police department has ten k-9 teams.  The police department is the law enforcement body that investigates crimes, answers calls for service (burglary, robbery, domestics, traffic details, etc).  They are the ones called when you dialing 911.  The same county also has a sheriffs department.  They man the courthouse and jails, serve warrants and civil papers.  They also have two k-9 handlers who work for them.  They primarily do jail searches for contraband and help with warrant service.  Within the same county is about seven city police agencies that provide service within their jurisdiction.  Most have their own K-9 teams as well. 

I just read what I typed.  Not even sure if it answers your question.  Anyway, you can see with the many different agencies (size and functions) how roles can vary amongst the k-9 teams.   I hope you can make sense out of this, cause Im having problems!lol 

@Emoryg : there is nothing confusing about your descriptions - either of the work with the Police Dogs, or with the way PDs and Sherriffs Depts etc work in practice (which I do already have some sort of grip on; I read too much detective fiction NOT to have gleaned background info on the latter ). What I meant, about some of the PDB keyboard warrior reactions to my posting about United Kingdom police work over the years, is that when I have said stuff similar to your paragraph about having dogs with a good stable temperament because of the 'public relations' role between Police & public, or otherwise commented on the role of the dogs in general operational work (as back-up to other Officers etc), I have been howled down. They seem to think that Police K9s ONLY have to be able to bite perps. Period. I have been told to go out on drive-bys with Officers (interesting that they assumed I have never done anything like that, on NO information about my history & contacts) to see what 'really happens' in the field. Thank you for providing a genuine Officer's take on the duties; I'm sure this is part of what Mr Darcy and Brady Bee referred to as " a breath of fresh air".

I have said on this forum many times that 80% of police work with dogs ( whether patrol, narcotics, bomb, etc) involves nosework. I’m from the states, and have actually worked with police dogs since the seventies until now. I just want to repeat for the record that actual police dog trainers do not always have bite only mentality, it’s more the opinion of Internet warriors as are many other misguided opinions about LE dogs. Nor are all LE dogs or handlers great, just like any other venue in the world. But it is also factual that most GS today are not suited for police work.

Juno,
I am not saying what you described. I bring my dog out of the crate and he is simply walking onto the training area. I have him on a prong collar. Compulsion was required to get the quick sit and down after he had learned them. No focused heeling and no pulling. As soon as he sees the decoy with the bite pillow, there is pressure on the line. No barking or hectic behavior. The decoy is not even moving. He simply has a leather covered bite wedge holding it in front of his waist. He is not making prey movements with it either. At this point in the training, I typically will sit or down the dog, which he does very quickly, and the decoy moves right in front of him and will slightly tilt the wedge up a down, slightly making prey, and the dog holds his sit or down. After a short while, I give the command to packen. The dog is loaded from capping his drive and he then offers a strong strike. Grips are there genetically. He has been trained to hold on and counter with a pushing bite and he has learned to out without conflict.

Hundmutter,  Ok, I got it now.  Here I wrote all that mess about the different agencies and k-9 teams and you could have said it better!lol

Just as I rambled on about all the different agencies and functions, I could ramble just as much on what others consider a good police dog.  Opinions and beliefs are a good thing in promoting productive discussions.  But as with dog training, there is no room for egos and attitudes.

Gustav pointed out, its mainly about the nose, with the playing field being fairly consistent from dog to dog.  Some do tend to break the mold at times and have that extra special talent.  You do not see that many female dogs in police work, but the ones I came across or helped train all accelerated at nose work.  I policed with a female for a short period of time.  She was incredible.  I’m talking track through the woods, over the hills, parking lots, roads, subdivisions, projects to grandma’s house where you are hiding incredible.  Methodical, accurate and committed even under heavy distraction.  She came over as a titled dog and with a little work was negotiating very difficult areas on the street.  Definitively makes my top ten list.

Biting is a different story with great variances between dogs and biting methodology, with each camp having their own views and often trying to convince others who is right.  I, myself have my own views, but care less about trying to convince others I am right or they are wrong.  Maybe I was a little bit of both.  I did what worked for me and my four-legged partners.  I searched out the dog with overwhelming fight drive when testing a police dog who would be expected to apprehend a suspect.  Some make test for a dog higher in prey or defensive, or balanced.  But it doesn’t matter how many hundreds of dogs you tested or trained, and how many hundreds of criminals you have tracked down, you remain open to different ideas.  In dog training, whatever venue it may be, the end goal is always the same:  That the dog who receives the training, leaves a better trained dog.  No brainer.  Hopefully the trainer keeps an open mind, accepts new ideas and takes what knowledge, skills and experience he has acquired and adds to it.  This is how you move forward.  This is how you become better.   Ultimately the dog is the benefactor.

Here’s an example of an old dog learning a new trick(story time MrDarcy).  Many years ago I am at an annual police dog seminar I went to.  They provided great camaraderie, updates on caselaw, training, problem solving and general networking amongst handlers.  I am with a group of younger handlers and they are asking about training/practice tracks.  Specifically, how many days a week should they practice tracking  My advice is always the same, I track everyday and will run around 3 or 4 a night.  Just make sure it benefits your dog.  Then the question comes up about who should lay them.  I explain that I lay many of my own and try at least once a shift to have an officer or another handler lay one.  For awhile I was lucky to have a good civilian trainer close by who would lay tracks for me.  I would stop by his house and he would ride around with me at work and help train my dog.  Civilian trainers can be the k-9 trainers best friend.  That’s who you can turn to when help is needed fixing a problem, cutting something off before it becomes one, or wanting to work something new on your dog, especially like a bite exercise where a series of events needs to be executed in order and the timing precise.  Unfortunately, the extent of many k-9 handlers helper skills are limited to standing there in the suit, give the dog a bite, try not to get hurt, pretend you’re the criminal and scream.  Which never sounds like the real thing.  You just hope the dog doesn’t get tired of the fake screams and decides he wants to hear more of a tenor.   This is not a plug for me, because I don ot train other peoples dogs anymore.   But if you can find a retired police dog trainer/handler who still trains, make friends.  Back to the handlers and who lays the tracks.  One young handler, who worked for a small department and used his own dog, mentioned he laid most of his own tracks because he worked alone at night.  Then he adds, “but sometimes on the weekends I wait for the bar to close, because a few of the guys leave their cars and walk home.  I watch where they go and then I’ll take my dog’s toy and put it somewhere along their track for him to find”.  Freaking genius!  This officer watches these drunks walk home and then uses their track to practice training with his dog.   Here I have ran hundreds of police calls, thousands of practice tracks (most being my own) and this guy has just taught me a lesson that I would use the remainder of my career. 

Now do I think a good police dog can do PR?   I guess that depends on what one thinks a good police dog is.  Did the police dogs I worked with and paraded in public make gansta thugs, car jackers, home invaders, drive by shooters, armed robbers, low life, POS… scream and wet their pants after they got sucked in the back of those dog’s mouth?   Bank on it! 

Lots of owners over here, among the minority who do train bitework, owe much to their local Police Dog handlers and Trainers. In the absence of a very established network of IPO and PP training, due to lack of interest, our Police members have often been a godsend to GSD Clubs !
Some awesome tracking tales told, too. Its true about the high proportion of nosework involved in Police activities; however another difference between our nations is that so many of our Dog Handlers now carry TWO dogs; they have a GSD, and they have a Spaniel or somesuch which does the majority of the scent searches in houses, business premises etc, for drugs / money / weapons.

Apple,

You are pretty much describing what we do at our club, the only difference is decoy wears a full suit as opposed to sleeve/ wedge, but your dog is young. We don’t agitate the dog, only time is during the carjacking scenarios and the surprise attacks.

Hundmutter, that’s really good to hear the k-9 units sometimes help the public with training the dog.  More often than not, it’s the other way around in the States.  Civilian trainers are often needed to help with the police dogs.  And there are many good civilian trainers who train quality police dogs.  Some k-9 units shy away from bringing in outside help and I doubt there are that many highly qualified police dog trainers who also handle the police dog on the street.  Highly qualified as in having trained (quality trained) many, many dogs over their careers.  So for whatever reason, some departments would rather trust their new handler with two years of experience, who they send off to a 6 week police dog training school so he can come back as a ‘certified master trainer’ of police dogs.  That certificate looks pretty, but his training ability is still limited to what his four-legged partner is willing to share with.  They would rather trust him and his six week of schooling, than trust the civilian trainer who for years has taken puppies and played with them on the rag, the tug, transitioned them to the sleeve.  Knows how to work a dog in prey or defense.  Who reads a dog like a book and doesn’t need to be told how to work it.  He’s adjusted grips, taught the out, cleaned up nasty, made good biters better.  Has his body riddled with helper tattoos where those little puppies from the years before now clamp down on him as he attacks them in the suit.  He knows what it’s like to take that puppies and pain stakingly guide them to the first footsteps with food in each one, offering that wee bit of praise as not to distract him, later mastering the turns, articles and crosstracks, all the way to watching those dog pass there first tracking test.   Or has that sore back from years of kneeling down as that 12 week old puppy prances by his side eating from his hand.  Then years later listen from the crowd as that old German trial judge critiques the dog and handler’s obedience routine, with the first words being translated as, this dog works excellent.  You get the message I’m sure.  Does, this all relate to police dog training, no.  Does training in one area, help in others?  Yes.  Some great police dogs owe their training to the civilian trainers.  And some police dogs will never have the chance to have the experienced civilian trainer give him that extra training he needs to be considered ‘Legend’ among the fellow handlers.  Legend is the highest level of praise given to the police dog.  It can only come from the other k-9 teams, never from the legend's handler.  That handler will never refer to his dog as legend and the most that he will say if asked was, he was a good dog.  I peronally know of three.  Again, egos and attitudes have no place in dog training, including police dog training.