Sportism - Page 29

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GSDfan

by GSDfan on 26 May 2016 - 10:05

Ok you said "people" i'll give you that, and good example of a poor performance.

But you are assuming K9 Rex (the Albuquerque dog) was given a "sportism" foundation. In fact he was an MWD (Military Working Dog) before being given to APD. Which means (I can explain but don't want to get too wordy) he most likely had a foundation closer to yours than mine.  From what I understand they have more of an old school program (defense).

But regardless of how he was started, their unskilled decoys typically spend the next 8 years in-service working the dogs primarily on IPO sleeves and huge Kimono suits...which isn't great maintenance training for any dog expected to be civil.

Another part of the problem, the dogs don't have one handler, they are bounced around like equipment and often are handled by many different handlers...so depending on the rotation can also see that same person as a decoy at another time. Much respect to our Military folks but IMO it's not a good situation.

What was your other example?
 


by joanro on 26 May 2016 - 15:05

Koots,you are correct in calling out the declaration of 'permanent default to equipment' ...that has been an inaccuate statement made over and over by him.


BTW, love those *red letters* in your post. ;)


Gigante

by Gigante on 26 May 2016 - 18:05

GSDfan

"Another part of the problem, the dogs don't have one handler, they are bounced around like equipment and often are handled by many different handlers...so depending on the rotation can also see that same person as a decoy at another time"

This is actually an argument in the affirm of sportism! Dogs default is man, bouncing is not an issue ;) We can probably rule out realistic training on that dog.

I think the word permanent is the big disconnect here. Its both misleading and very accurate at the same time. If your familiar with muscle memory or hard coded responses that are not conscious then the principles seem sound. If you ever tried to take the remote from your sleeping dads hand to change the channe,l if he began to wake the response is usually tighten grip and pull in, even before he was awake that's a permanent default. Try that on a combat veteran who's just arrived back home from his sixth tour and you'll lose teeth most likely as he shoves into your face that's his permanent default, even before he is fully awake.

Permanent is relative at least to me with regards to this thread as the action that is preprogram and embedded into the subconscious mind to be drawn upon in a massively stressful critical dynamic situation when thoughts are to slow to be used and the mind over rides.

Should average Joe and Fido care about permanent default probably not, sport people care, probably not, only really pertinent to people who's training of a dog has life and death or very serious consequences for failure.

susie

by susie on 26 May 2016 - 18:05

"Should average Joe and Fido care about permanent default probably not, sport people care, probably not, only really pertinent to people who's training of a dog has life and death or very serious consequences for failure."

I guess the last part of your post speaks for GSDfan ...

Come on, folks, let´s be honest, where does police get the vast majority of dogs from? Most of them are out of IPO homes, titled or not, some out of KNPV, only a very low percentage is raised and trained "for" later policework ( and even in this case we don´t know how they were trained - sleeve, hidden sleeve, suit only ? ).

"Permanent default"? In this case we would hear about problems on a regular basis.
We saw one vid - maybe there are 10 more, but how many dogs are out there? Thousands of thousands...

It´s like always - it´s about the dog and it´s about proper training - in case a dog "fails" it´s either temperament wise not suitable for the job, or the trainer made mistakes...


Gigante

by Gigante on 26 May 2016 - 18:05

No susie not specifically, at all.. it was not a read between the lines comment. There are thousands of videos of dogs defaulting to equipment. I have seen many people state they wash those dogs out. Of course you have to. Yes its about the dog and proper training that's what we are discussing.




GSDfan

by GSDfan on 26 May 2016 - 19:05

I agree with Suzie. If "permanent" was true we would see public failures on a grand scale. I am certainly not aware of thousands of videos, maybe you can share some Gigante? And I asked for other examples since the Albuquerque dog was likely not started in a sport style..maybe bad subsequent training but it wasn't due to his start.

I have seen plenty of old school trained dogs default to equipment too...with my own eyes....Just because you don't first teach a dog to target the equipment doesn't mean a dog from that style is not fallible.


However a dog is started there is no excuse for shitty continued maintenance training and no dog is immune whether their foundation was sporty or Hans-tastic

susie

by susie on 26 May 2016 - 19:05

I didn´t interpret your comment as a "read between the lines" comment, I just wanted to point out that GSDfan is the one who can´t live with "failure", not you, not me, but she does need a dog suitable to do the job...

Glad you confirm it´s about the dog and proper training...

Think about the term "sportism" - what does it mean?

1. The dog is raised and trained in a club surrounding ( in most cases IPO, because that´s still the sport with the most members worldwide ).

2. Most often the prey drive will be stimulated by using tug and sleeve, the target is the sleeve arm.

What does this say about the dog?

It does have at least some prey drive, and it will be used to bite the arm.
This doesn´t say anything about the "defense" of this dog, this doesn´t say anything about "civility", it doesn´t say anything about thresholds yet...

Now training for PP ( I am still amazed how many people on this planet are in need of a PP dog, life must be really dangerous in the US, although you are even allowed to carry weapons ) or police starts...

It´s pretty easy to teach a prey driven dog that now not only the sleeve, but the whole decoy is the goal - the result: an effective prey monster ( prey drive doesn´t care about ball, tug, sleeve, person, just imprint the dog on your personal goal ).

In case this dog is not only prey driven, but "defensiv, aggressive, serious" ( however you want to call it ), too, now you are able to develop these maybe formerly ignored traits, ( normally this dog will become the better police dog, because its behavior is backed up by at least two drives/traits now, not only one ), but different handlers = different opinions.

It´s about the dog, and it´s about proper training -
the best training won´t help in case the dog is not suitable for the job ( in that case someone bought/sold the wrong dog ), whereas shitty training is able to screw up the best dog ( in this case I´d either think about my skills as trainer or helper ).

by joanro on 26 May 2016 - 19:05

'Hans-tastic' Thumbs Up    Wink Smile


Gigante

by Gigante on 26 May 2016 - 20:05

GSDfan

As stated the general public would not have much use, so grand scales would not apply. As stated massively stressful occurrences. Meaning seriously out of the norm. Youtube is easy to find fixations, look if you like.

Susie

Anyone utilizing a dog for protection can not deal with failure. Prey defense and civility are not the discussion I am missing what the drive of the dog has to do with anything.





GSDfan

by GSDfan on 26 May 2016 - 20:05

@ Gigante 

Gsdfan:hundreds of thousands of police dogs around the world have a sport style foundation (with correct civil training). If they all will "PERMANENTLY default" to equipment we would see public failures on a grand scale.


Suzie just to clarify I do not handle a dog at my full time job.






 


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