Sportism - Page 33

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by vk4gsd on 27 May 2016 - 19:05

I know it sounds laughable and nobody does it but IMO the most practical bite target areas are behind the decoy not in front.

Front just looks better.


Prager

by Prager on 28 May 2016 - 02:05

Another great test of the "civility" of the dog is this.
Decoy with sleeve or body suit and other one plain clothed. Dog has muzzle - it is basically muzzle attack and I know that muzzle attack does not proof that the dog is civil but the choice the dog makes does . The decoy without protection is certain distance 75- 100 ft form the dog and his handler . In between and about 10 -15 feet to the side is decoy with bite suit. The decoy without equipment lightly agitates so that the dog focuses on him. The dog is then immediately released and after that the civil decoy stops moving. The dog who was released on attack command must run past suit clad decoy who may or may not move. Civil dog should continue on the decoy on whom he focused first - the civil dressed decoy.

Prager

by Prager on 28 May 2016 - 02:05

Look at similar scenario at timer 4:23 and at 4:50. Video is from Ukraine. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJX6P7YkF3c


by vk4gsd on 28 May 2016 - 02:05

Seen these tests on YouTube, prolly same ones as everyone else seen.

my question is all of these "civil" tests can be trained hence the "real dog" crowd are no further ahead or better off than standard IPO sport crowd... except the so called real dog crowd don't have to perform in front of impartial strangers, they do it privately and have the luxury of showing people what they want them to see.

GSDfan

by GSDfan on 28 May 2016 - 04:05

With regards to your longer post, I appreciate your honesty and conformation (explanation for the behaviors) in dogs of this training type I see in which I personally find undesirable.
ie. among others...dogs who avoid equipment, or come off the sleeve to bite my leg because they felt their bite "wasn't working" because I pressured them instead of cried and ran away.

Sorry but you will not convince me, I do not find these traits desirable. I know these types of dogs and have worked them on sleeves, suits and hidden equipment. They work with a stress and a fear of serious self preservation...they lack confidence and work very close to their thresholds, which I go out of my way not to cross with too much pressure and ruin someone's dog. But yes...they will bite for real.

I do not lump PSA and Police in the same bag, they require much different training after foundation. But I want to see the same types of dogs in each venue. One who displays strength, confidence, stability and environmental soundness, will bite whether the decoy has equipment on or not.

Any kind of police apprehension is stressful and chaotic with numerous people and other officers. It is no place for dog who can't handle pressure. I will not sacrifice strength and confidence for idiot proof civility. I know how to train to make equipment insignificant, and if the dog is worthy of the job there will be no issues.

The dog should have the same threshold to handle pressure on the bite suit, hidden sleeve or philly wrap (closest you can safely get in training). Unfortunately without risking your decoy's safety or making him take real bites you can only go so far. Using a hidden sleeve might not be perfect but there is little choice when catching dogs from distance. I have found using a leather gauntlet under neoprene is the best to simulate a civil bite (the neoprene feels like skin and doesn't smell like sleeve or suit material). Only problem is the leather gauntlet is only 4" wide so the decoy must place the dog on the bite for safety.

I will not argue with PP, they type of training and dogs you prefer will do fine in this venue.

As I mentioned before the bicep should be taught for frontal attacks, or passive (front with arms down). The dog should not run behind the decoy if he's facing you to look for a place to bite. But the reason I stated I would like to see one of your finished dogs take pressure on the bicep because you can really tell how much self-confidence a dog has or doesn't by putting him up there. The least confident (either from past training or genetically lacking) dogs who have come to me for training refused to bite there even if otherwise fine on the forearm or tricep.


GSDfan

by GSDfan on 28 May 2016 - 05:05

 

 


In terms of your "civil tests". I would not tether a dog so if the dog makes the correct decision, he/she gets "corrected" by the tether and is denied their reward (bite). Unless the decoy is making a significant "threat" not just lightly agitating I would use a directional command. My dogs are not normally permitted to autonomously make a decision unless presented with a significant threat. Anything else requires a bite with directional command.

Your second test makes more sense.

Just because a dog is presented with a suited decoy and non-suited decoy and allowed to choose...If he chooses the suited decoy IMO it does not confirm or deny your default equipment preference. Dogs routinely attend training, seminars and trials where many spectators, trainers, judges, stewards, photographers etc. are on and close to the field. The dog eventually becomes desensitized to the bystanders after repeatedly being presented with and only allowed to bite (by restraint and command from handler) with the suited decoy or handler directed civil target. The dog learns this to be more of a "rule unless otherwise commanded" than anything else. I even see this in your videos...if you didn't the dog would willy nilly bark at everyone there including the videographer. A more realistic/functional test would be one decoy slipping equipment or throwing/dropping it in the dogs path on the way to the bite (things a police dog might actually see).

This video isn't the best and not what you described... and it's on a hidden sleeve...I'm sure you'll find something else wrong with it but it's all I got, the dog is told to bite the non-agitating decoy with hidden sleeve (he was supposed to be passive) and ignore the agitating (clatter stick) decoy in the suit. This is her first time. Not guided by leash, dog gave no resistance and doesn't come off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFawFXIaUFg

 



Prager

by Prager on 28 May 2016 - 06:05

Well to me this is about clarity and not about convincing anyone of anything.
Next I would say that again you do not understand what I am talking about or you do understand and are just deflecting due to lack of appropriate argument. You are again in error somehow assuming that I am training defensive dogs only. I truly do not know where is that coming from. I will say one more darn time . What I am talking about is not about what drives are used when but about TARGETING the drives. We are basically doing the same thing. Except You target dogs on the sleeve and I target them on the man. How is that bad when dog which suppose to target man is trained to target the men? Non can explain to me so far why is better to teach them to target sleeve and not man and then switch and tell the dog OK now you DO NOT target the sleeve target the man. And lets face it you posted few videos claiming targeting man where the dog was clearly tr getting sleeves. And then on top of it let me mind you it is quite arrogant to use the old worn out argument -I can run dogs the way you train it - especially without even knowing dogs which I have trained. You are just assuming it here, and you know what assume means. But so be it. I must be saying something right if you are getting on this path. But OK, I will humor you and will follow on your point by saying this. I doubt seriously that you would run off dogs which I am training more then I would dogs you are trying. Any dog can be run and pissing context like this is ..well not reasonable.
But now since you can not explain to me why switching dog from something which he learned from a puppy to something different, you want to talk about prey versus defense instead. Well I can do that too.
The biggest problem with prey sportism only is that it build dogs which are trained not to recognize and thus to deal with danger. ( I have heard that from Ivan Balabanov student) That is why they look so great and that is why people clap and sound voices of surprised admiration, when they see the dog to hit like freight train. And that is falsely called confidence . and courage. Really? Yes it is pretty and impressive I admit and I myself like to watch it. That is all peachy ducky while the scenario goes the way it "suppose" to go. Guy gets bitten falls down or puts out mild struggle which keeps the prey dog comfortably in his prey drive and then the man gives up while crying like a little girl. Everybody applauds.
The problem arrives if perp fights harder and takes the prey dog from the comfort of his prey drive into defense . Now such dog is not equipped to deal with it since his sportist trainer never found important to teach the dog what it takes to fight in a defense drive.Dog then folds it like a cheep tent. Oh yes they claim defense training, but all we see is increased fight drive in prey response to challenge which however the dog never sees as a real threat. Where the dog who is in balanced way trained in prey and in defense will then just deal with familiar. And if he was trained by me for example then he will meat pressure of defense with higher pressure of defense and with more anger. But anger and confided dominant defense is no no in sport circles thus most people from these and sportist circles have never seen it and all they know are weak dogs who can not cut the mustard in defense. Which is what you are claiming and I am not surprised by that.

Then you say : I will not sacrifice strength and confidence for idiot proof civility.
I make this one short.
Neither will I.

Hidden sleeve:
Any time there is hidden sleeve second time the dog sees it he knows it is sleeve. I f I see hidden sleeve dog sees hidden sleeve and I can see hidden sleeve all the time. Dogs are not stupid. And if the dog sees it it is irrelevant if it smells like sleeve or neoprene. Yet the dog by experience will also know that neoprene is hidden sleeve.

And then I see you are still stuck on seeing one of my dogs on frontal bite on suit. Well I'll see if I can humor you and make a video.

In the end I would like to say that it is surprising to me to hear demands for videos which you can evaluate and are acting like some expert towering over me , from someone who has so much confidence to claim to "know how to train to make equipment insignificant", and yet calls videos of dogs coming from one sleeve to another sleeve to another sleeve yet "man targeting" and "transition of an IPO dog with a sport foundation to civil work and man(!) targeting." where all the dog is doing is always targeting sleeve. ( Page 4) And then again on page 6 video called "Ema man targeting" where the dog is simply yet again going from one sleeve to another to another sleeve. I am sorry but those videos do not involve any "man targeting" what so ever! And if you do not understand that than I know where all your posts are coming from .

Prager

by Prager on 28 May 2016 - 06:05

GSDfan "In terms of your "civil tests". I would not tether a dog so if the dog makes the correct decision, he/she gets "corrected" by the tether and is denied their reward (bite). "

 

Hans : LOL so you would let the civil decoy get bloody in order for the dog to ger reward. Well I like that now you talking real civil training. However i wonder how many decoys you go through and what is your business insurance rate. ?
This is really getting stupid . Dogs are agitated on tie ups with spring or bungee all the time!
I am going to watch TV .


GSDfan

by GSDfan on 28 May 2016 - 10:05

The videos I shared was a step in training, not a test or a finished scenario product. Perhaps instead of man targeting you would accept the description equipment desensitization? Either way it is not training that you like and that doesn't matter to me, there is plenty you have on video which I do not like.

My "assumptions" are made from your own words and the video's of yours I have seen on youtube. Which I will spare you from critiquing out of respect, something you don't seem to show others.

I am far from an expert, I never claimed to be. Because I make observations and answer your questions from my experience you accuse me of such? Relax Hans...I said 27 pages ago we will agree to disagree.

Hans : LOL so you would let the civil decoy get bloody in order for the dog to ger reward.

GSDfan: Uh no, I wouldn't do the test that way. Working a dog on a backtie is a lot different than sending him 20 ft to be stopped by a tether.

You have nice dogs Hans, I would be able to do a lot with them my way.


susie

by susie on 28 May 2016 - 12:05

" Non can explain to me so far why is better to teach them to target sleeve and not man and then switch and tell the dog OK now you DO NOT target the sleeve target the man."

Prager, I guess that´s the main problem - as far as I remember almost nobody was against your initial "theory", at least I even said a lot of pages ago something like "why not, nobody is forced to train IPO style in case he wants to do PP..."

Several people ( including me ) simply questioned your "permanent default" statement, because these people made different experiences; and several people ( again including me ) questioned your training style ( not your theory ) to reach your goal ( "PP dog" ).

Grips, drives, pressure, mental development, and when and how to support which trait ( fundamentals ) ... you do it your way, a lot of people train different, but there are still a lot of well trained ( real ) working dogs out there - where do they come from?

The quality of the dog, the quality of training, and the quality of handling makes the "difference" out of my experience, not the former "sport" foundation work.

Guess we really have to agree to disagree, and all these repetitions won´t change the mindset of people.





 


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