2-2 Line/In breeding - Page 10

Jenn .... you would have a problem if your truly knew and understood the very bad health issues that plague the WL GS , as also with the SL GS . The diffuculty is that in the working lines the health issue is not as much disclosed and discussed as a topic . but I ssure you , any knowledgable and important working line breeder knows what I just state be true. So , yes it is a problem and Jenn , you should most definately see this as a problem.. because simply [ not opinion , a fact ] .. it is.

^I wish people wouldn't speak like this. Really...if you have information, share it. Tell people what the problems are that you claim the breed has. This kind of cryptic talk doesn't help anyone except for the person who writes it because it makes others think that there is some secret information that you have that no one else does. I'd love to hear the "very bad health issues that plague the breed" but yet all we hear is that a problem exists and no information as to what the problem actually is.

Centurian, please, before you proselytize me, read what I actually wrote and respond in kind. Your comment directed at me made no sense whatsoever with regard to my comment to Sitasmom. Maybe you wrote the wrong user name? I said it's not that hard to avoid linebred dogs in working lines. I do it all the time, because one of mine is very heavily linebred (and healthy as a horse, btw) and I need to bring in new blood now and again. You came back with a cryptic sermon about how I don't understand health in working line GSDs and I would have a problem if I did.

Please, as BW said, if you "know" things, state them. 

Here's one I just bought last Fall. No linebreeding until gen. 6, and that's just 2 dogs. Robby Glockeneck and Harro Lechrainstadt.http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2432801-madox-von-der-emsaue

so now Jenny, find a partner for breeding that doesnot accidentily give you some linebreeding, and do that for the next three generations, than also take in consideration that those partners need to match your dogs to improve or at least produce equal quality as what you start with.

IMO a senseless attempt to do something to make yourself feeling better over what your doing without giving some factual toughts to the matter

Jenn , mistake ,,,I mis read what you wrote .... I am very very very sorry .Forgive my post ... I thought you meant / wrote the oppositein your comment . My apologies for misunderstanding your post.

However I stand by the point I make : those that feel they don't have to avoid breeding, linebred WL as a practice - that is a problem .

BW ..... with respect and with dignity I write this to you ... not sarcastically ..... if you do not know , and at your level and super accomplishments .. you already don't know what I am referencing in general ... then I can't help you .

All that I can share with you is that even the average family seeking a puppy is at least versed with maladies that exist in multitudes of dogs , let alone gs. Common sense .. here in the USA , why would breeders guarantee their gs puppies to buyers , if there was nothing prevelent to guarrantee about ? I never ever guarantee a puppy and I disclose right up front that dogs are like people and a malady can present at anytime- if so then I will place another pup with them . It is not a guarantee that nothing will happen .

For sure you know that with all the screening in the last decades hip /elbow displasia is the leastof all maladies to worry about , and the other maladies are much much much , more a concern . If you do not think that health issues , even though some existed in the 1950's , are a concern in SL and WL equally alike [ and I attribute the prevelence and increse to line breeding in both - a fact .. line breeding keeps and intensifies the very bad genes too] , then there is not that are GS elite , sort to speak , have kindly educated me about .

And as far as it does no good. What does no good is breeders not admitting or recognizinng the problems they have and do create in breeding. To repeatedly practive linebreding for whatever reason knowing that the very very very bad traits are passed along with those seemingly wonderful reapitualted traits. Giving no regard for the very deleteriuos traits is what is bad .

Centurian everybody outside the GSD world knows GSD is a ill breed too many health problems the problem is most of the hardcore GSD people will not say this in public, I see today also a lot of young dogs die on cancer 6 -7 years old than we have the hips,ellbows, back, etc etc his is the list in Holland. On my club 2 young promising GSD  hips and ellbow problems   stopped immidiately with training

https://www.rashondenwijzer.nl/top-10-zieke-hondenrassen.

GSD is place 4 most sick  breed in Holland  with 67 disorder/problems...Only the GSD breeders/ people will say this is nonsense, and that is the biggest problem today They will NOT  see this,

BW, just in case you don't really know what would be WL concerns that C is reluctant to divulge, and only for the sake of newbies or others of a confused nature, I would submit my educated guess that bloat and hemangiosarcoma would be the one's to keep an eye out for. As a matter of fact, just those posting on this thread could probably name at least two or a dozen WL's that they know of who perished from either of these dreaded conditions. That would be worthwhile information but it wouldn't be good for future sales.

 

Edited: Also, untreated mammary tumors.

Madox also has Lorett v Stadtfeld 5:5 on his sire side and 0:7 on the Dam side

Mackenzie

Lol...that's my point "BW ..... with respect and with dignity I write this to you ... not sarcastically ..... if you do not know , and at your level and super accomplishments .. you already don't know what I am referencing in general ... then I can't help you." This kind of statement is just to try to win over some sort of credibility and status rather than actually provide information. Sad state of affairs. I don't care how much respect or dignity you claim to give someone, you're clearly trying to prove that you know something someone else doesn't and instead of actually teaching people...you choose to belittle and demean. It would've been 300 times easier for you to list off the issues that you believe "plague the breed" than to write out what you did. It would've taken less characters and way less time. Instead you chose to do what you did.

Plague to me means a huge problem in the breed. There is currently no major issue affecting the breed in a statistically significant amount. No matter how much you discuss it theoretically, I see way too many shepherds weekly/monthly/yearly to believe there is any kind of major issue going on that isn't easily controlled. The majority of the issues that are going on today, were going on years ago as well, the only difference is today we can share that information much faster than anytime before. You hear of problems because you have things like Facebook and forums on which random strangers from around the world are posting that their dogs are coming down with issues. We might "know" dozens of dogs that pass from this or that because we "know" more people than ever before through social media...20 years ago, no one would've known about these dogs, they would've passed, and no one would've thought twice about it or made any kind of correlation.

Duke, read what I wrote. You're way off base with your comment to me. I was simply pointing out that if someone wishes to, it's not hard to find a dog w/out tight linebreeding. The last litter I did was a 2-3, so you get no argument from me. I have already said if no one linebreeds, then eventually we have a big melting pot and won't be able to find alternative lines.

 

Centurian, apology accepted.

 

Beetree, of course we could name two or up to a dozen GSDs who perished from bloat, hemangio, etc. But when you know hundreds, two to a dozen isn't exactly staggering. Of course that is no consolation to the owners of those two to a dozen dogs. :(

 

No breed is perfect and no living thing is guaranteed healthy. But, my personal experience in the breed has either been darn lucky or the breed isn't really as bad off as the doomsday club would lead you to believe. In fact, the majority of sob stories about sick dogs dying early that I hear about are from buyers who bought a BYB GSD from American lines and it died and now they are doing their homework and want a dog w/some thought put into it. I lost one early, 8.5- he bled out due to a medication reaction. Can't blame the breed or the breeder. Healthy as a horse up to then. My foundation female is 10.5 and in good shape. Had a couple benign mammary tumors removed, but that's it, and that was at 10 years old. Never sick a day in her life.

 

Mackenzie, I thought you were done with me. Your comment is impertinent, since this thread is about close linebreeding and inbreeding. Not a 5-5 on the dog's sire side! Good grief. If you'd like, I can list all the linebreeding. That doesn't change a thing about my point. I am quite sure Sitasmom was not talking about a 5-5 on the sire's side when she said it was getting hard to find a dog w/out a lot of linebreeding, especially since this is a thread about a 2-2.

 

Centurian, a guarantee is not a guarantee the dog will be perfect. It's a guarantee that you'll be there in case they aren't. I agree that guarantees are a little silly. But, in the USA, everyone expects one and I certainly don't mind offering one.

 

BlackMalinois, hips, elbows, cancer...all can also be equally environmentally-induced as genetic. I have seen all those afflictions in every breed. Malinois might have less of it, but again, Mals don't have NEARLY the popularity or sheer numbers, so the stats are skewed.

 

I admit I check deep into pedigrees for health issues prior to purchasing a dog. So, my mileage may vary from someone who just buys a puppy and crosses their fingers.