Mastiff Type Heads in the GSD - Page 8

Margaret, what Sunsilver refers to ^ is a minority, usually direct imports; the videos we called up last time around showed there was a whole parallel show scene where they were walking just these huge headed dogs around, in rings set up in parks etc; they did not look like Chinese KC shows*. Just how many dogs this showing involved, or whether the fad has really lasted at that level, is uncertain - but there certainly still seem to be a few active kennels breeding and selling puppies, some of the websites appear to be up-to-date.

 

*KC Shows of which video footage is also available, and where (almost all ?) of the GSDs being shown are recognisably 'normal'.

Hundmutter, where did you find "active kennels breeding and selling puppies" ?
I wasn´t able to find any current breeders, only an old phone number, and an old web site ( no more available ).
The "dome headed" dogs we ( Germany ) use to sell prior to breeding age are not able to produce the kind of Chinese dogs on the pictures ( it´s not only the heads, it´s the skin, too ).
It´s a totally different head set and skin shape...

Susie I am afraid I didn't note down which ones it was - but I trawled through that long list of website references in the archived thread, and some of them looked as though they bore 2016 dates (not 2013 ones). If I had got the sites all translated, I might have found recent litters advertised on those. If I get time I'll go back and try to find them again and see if Google Translate can get me enough content detail.

Thank you - I am really curious.

First my apology. This is the very first time I have responded to a thread without reading the whole thread so if my comments are duplicative mea culpa. Its 4 am so forgive me for jumping straight to commenting.

ARGHHH!!! FIrst this is NOT a Willis chart. As noted right on it the authors are Ostranger & Wayne. Google them and canine genome to read the article this chart is part of.http://m.genome.cshlp.org/content/15/12/1706.full#F1

Second I have been ranting against this chart for more than a decade as a classic example of bad science masquerading as established unconvertible fact.

Why? Three reasons. 1. It totally dismisses what we know historically about our breed based on very carefully kept pictures, records as well as the writings of the breed founder. Show me where in Max's books, yearly reports or letters or SV records it indicates ANY use of mastiff blood & for what purpose. He intended to create a herding breed & to do so he used herding dogs of his era. Until at least 1938 & possibly longer the SV had an open stud book which allowed an unregistered active working herder to be bred & its progeny registered. I've yet to see a mastiff herding. We KNOW the history of the "continental" herding breeds and that they come from the same root stock. These include the Belgians, Dutchies, the GSD and I believe a native French breed. Notice where the Belgians are on the chart- smack dab under herding breeds where they (& we) belong. So how can this be explained. Bad, incomplete UNKNOWLEDABLE (at least re dog breeding) science!

Sunsilver did you bother to find out the particulars behind the "research" that created this chart? First they created a structure analysis of 85 breeds by using only 69 breeds to test. Interesting new math. Secondly since there are hundreds & hundreds of dog breeds the structural divisions of the chart are at best incomplete & at worst suspect. Third they used 5 individuals from ea breed. Yes folks 5!  In a breed as diverse as the GSD this does not remotely meet the standards of statistical significance!!! Furthermore they do not identify the dogs used. Were they all show dogs, all Czech or perhaps DDR because we DO know they were not adverse to a bit of mixing particularly w/ Rots? There is no way of knowing if these " scientists" were even remotely aware of the bifurcations within our breed. They controlled for "remoteness"by requiring dogs be unrelated at the grandparent level. Throw a dart at some hi-line pedigrees & you can come up with a bunch of dogs who meet that criteria but are in fact linebred up the kazoo in generations 4,5,6,7 and on. Not remote at all. My hypothesis is they chose VA Dogs thinking of them as the best representatives of the breed and in doing so accidentally chose for the mastiff type because of NOT knowing the breed & how incorrect that head & body type really is. ( the general public always wants to tell you about their 125-150lb GSD as if bigger is better and not understanding the GSD is actually a medium to large breed and not a giant breed)  cont below

Third reason I find this whole line of thought specious ( note I am in the camp that suspects some deliberate infusion to meet the big money market demand from China wh could account 4 the dna in the ridiculously small sample tho I also think there are other possibilities). I have had shepherds for more than 50 years. I have tried to be a student of the breed and have gone to thousands of shows trials breed surveys etc. I have visited numerous kennels & breeders. In addition I collect printed materials on the GSD. I have books, articles,pedigrees, photos and old standards from the early 1900's on. So I have seen a ton of dogs in person and also in photos. In my small experience the type of mastiff head & body we are seeing is a very RECENT development. This does not come out of some mythical ancestor a 100 years ago. I suggest you look in an old Goldbecker & Hart book on the GSD. They show 3 shepherd heads - weak or bitchy, correct & coarse which until recently was deemed faulty. A coarse head is nothing like the distinctly mastiff heads we are seeing today.

As I skimmed the thread I saw mention of height as a possible connection to the mastiff type. Height is a different issue. The breed has had height problems from the beginning tho in the early days it tended to give you a tall thin longer dog often called "weedy". Max chose Klodo Boxberg if I remember correctly to address the height issues of that time.

Over the years I have seen and had hands on a ton of shepherds. I have been privileged to see some gorgeous ones and have been blessed in owning sound beautiful ones. But I have also seen ones that only remotely resembled a GSD- usually from god only knows back yard breeding BUT not always. A trick I learned at AKC shows was to always check out the obedience ring because that top show dog may well have a littermate sold w/o papers & listed w/ an ilp because the breeder didn't want his name on the dog

There are a # of archetypes in our breed seen more easily in bitches than males. Watch and you'll start to be able to id them - hint look at the dogs from the early years up to about the 40s and its easy to id the different body types and strains used to create the breed -the archetypes-AND NONE OF THEM LOOK ANYTHING LIKE A MASTIFF. I have seen the occasional dog look a bit like a greyhound(those tall,thin weedy ones) but once again NOT the mastiff type we are discussing.

So those are my reasons for believing the chart is bad science and bs. Against the dna evidence from 5 measly dogs we have photo, print, historical and personal evidence. I know which one I trust.

Now I would like to interject a different idea as some food for thought and hopefully interesting conversation. For the purpose of this conversation I would like to suggest for the moment we consider the dna of the 5 dogs tested for the chart as an aberration and not representative of the breed. So if it's not dna causing the masitff appearance what else could be?

For quite a few years I have not liked the appearance of the VA dogs primarily because of this mastiff appearance. Generally I much prefer V and SG dogs finding them more correct and standard in body type.

When I got in the breed it was not unusual on German pedigrees to see families where an entire litter or most of it was show rated as well as titled and often breed surveyed. I find that rare today but it taught me to look at families & siblings not just individuals. To this day I like to see a bitch line where the owners & breeders have taken the time and bred the ability to put a SchH3 on their bitches and the bitch also comes from a strong litter/ family w/ siblings titled rated surveyed and xrayed. Yes I know that today that is like looking for a unicorn :(.

So of course I look at the littermates, siblings and half siblings of the VA dogs. Often I will find attractive perfectly normal relatives with normal heads and bodies. I have also found photos of VA dogs when they were younger looking much like these normal relatives. It got me thinking about artificial means that could create those kind of body changes in an individual between youth & maturity since that kind of radical body change is unusual for shepherds.

For those new to the dog/animal show world or those who are still incredibly naive let me introduce you to the reality of what man will do to win. UPPERS , downers , arsenic for a plush good looking coat, dye, fixed teeth etc etc etc. Which led me straight to the idea that they were giving these dogs steroids. Now I do not have proof it's just a thought BUT I have had some interesting talks w folks who are in a position to know. Plus it would explain not only the extreme difference in body types from siblings but also explain the rotten unstable temperment I've seen in many show dogs.

Thoughts?

Thank you for your insights, Tigg! They are very much appreciated, even if you don't agree with what I said. Yes, I could be wrong about this - I have no trouble admitting that, and I'm certainly not going to be butt-hurt if I am.

You do an excellent job of making your points without telling me I'm an idiot for even suggesting this. Thank you for clearing up the origins of that chart. I THOUGHT it came from Willis, or I would have been more suspicious about it.

Of course, the way to settle this once and for all would be, as you said, to get DNA samples from the Chinese dogs.

I guess drugs are a possibility, but they certainly wouldn't cause the droopy skin!  One thought that crossed my mind was making the dog fat, then putting it on a diet to get the droopy skin.

OTOH, look at what selectively breeding for droopy skin has done to the Neapolitan mastiff and the bassett hound in just a few decades...

 

TIG I have shown earlier (one of the posts you didn't read) that the DNA list did not, in fact, come from Dr Willis (but rather from a post on an earlier thred, supplied with it run together with another diagram - again not Willis - and with an ancestral 'tree' that WAS from Willis). Neither Malcolm in his book, nor Daryl Ehret, the poster, intended this juxtaposition to illustrate the current subject of 'Chinese-preference massive heads in GSD'.

Actually I agree pretty much with everything else you just posted - that it's "bad science" anyway. What I actually came on at this time to say is that I have spent all day trying to research the sources of the various

photographs and videos discussed in this (and previous) thred(s), to answer the question posed ^^ by Susie.

Results:

Search was made difficult by the long list of individual Kennels linked in an earlier thred discussion now all showing as just single pictures of these big headed dogs.  WTF ??? - I think the answer to why that happened will become obvious as something to do with updating, but it rather threw me, as I was expecting to work down the list again, getting each link translated, trying to find CURRENT (2016/17) info.

 

So instead I have had to work from a more limited number of kennel names, scattered through the threds in ref to Chinese sites.

So that I do not 'lose' THIS post, I am going to work through what I did find to look at in the next post :

http://www.zgmyqzx.com/vip1/?ID=585

This is the URL of a kennel (apparently still operating), not advertising any puppies but singing praises for "Whirlwind" and "Cyclone", two dogs described as "the dog industry's glory". Cyclone, I gather, is one year old, or was when the site was put up, and of "shining Ming blood style" (whatever that is). There are photos of mating ties with almost equally big headed females. The owner is Mr Sun, of North Village, Daxing District, Beijing, Tel:  13651000396.  (I'd phone, but don't speak Cantonese LOL).

There are no dates; no ref to "GSDs"/"German Shepherds" - but IIRC there certainly were on some of the sites originally listed back in 2013.

There are a great many similar Google listings, with code numbers as part of the URL, all showing different kennels (and owners) in different Chinese cities.  It gets interesting when you realise all these websites employ the same web design, even if they refer to different kennels/people.

Does not matter whether they are in Tianjin, Xin Itung, Long Xiang province - they all apparently had the same web designer, and all refer to the "canine industry".                 Continues next box: