Line breeding question - Page 1

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by laubach on 28 January 2005 - 10:01

Would line breeding 3-2 to two dogs be considered too close in GSD circles? By this I mean the dam and the grand dam on the sire's side could be litter mates. Thanks, Peter

by pzdc on 28 January 2005 - 18:01

First of all that is inbreeding - linebreeding is as from the the 4th generation backwards. And yes 2 -3 inbreeding is allowed, but you had better make sure that the dog you inbreed on is damn good, because you don't only get the positive aspects, you get the negatives as well. E.g a dog has a very good head, but an extremely short croup. What happens if you get the biche's (weak) head and the inbred dog's croup? It's a gamble to inbreed so closely.

by The Juiceman on 28 January 2005 - 19:01

A more accurate measure of the inbreeding involved is the measure the Wright''s Coefficient of Inbreeding. It is a very complicated mathematical formula that measures the relationship between every dog in the pedigree. The program I use, The Breeders Standard, measures back 10 generations. The COI is expressed as a number between 0.00 and 1.00 with a father-daughter mating having a COI of at least .25 (assuming no other common ancestors, i.e. human population). A COI of .05-.15 is generally linebreeding with a COI>.15 indicating moderate inbreeding. With healthy stock it can have excellent results but it is a gamble. Do a google search on the subject for more information.

PINERIDGE

by PINERIDGE on 28 January 2005 - 19:01

This doesn't bother me - I prefer to call it "close" linebreeding -- since you're talking litter mates and not same dog, same dog -- I did half brother/half sister -- (same mother) but the male sides were totally unrelated -- and I knew I wasn't going to drege up any huge problems - I had a nice litter but I wouldn't make a habit of this - only did it once, to learn more about what my male would produce, and to see how strongly the duplicate female side would come through -- actually -- his sire side took over more so!! -- They say look to the grandparents too !! As stated above -- If you're going to get "close" you want to already know that you're not doubling up on all the bad stuff that's been surpressed just below the surface -- I've seen really inbred litters born with the guts hanging out - literally - because their midline didn't grow together -- Gee, maybe they shouldn't have inbred on FIDO 5 times one the sire's side and 2 on the dam's, huh ? !!

by Sting on 29 January 2005 - 04:01

I sold half brother/half sister who accidently mated. The line is a very successful line having many Ch show winners, in fact the Dam of the half brother/sister combination is one of the top producing bitches here. My line has been a very healthy line for many years, all my dogs generally die of old age. This mating was a total disaster, all puppies with one exception had health issues having Inguinal Hernias, one puppy needing an operation at only six weeks old. On vet advise the other two puppies also needed a operation at a later date. I seriously would never advocate such a close mating and why? There should be enough dogs out there to choose from without the such risk. The pups are now superb looking dogs. All will never be bred from. Do you really want to risk it? Regards, Sting

by Sugarfoot on 29 January 2005 - 05:01

Hi Sting, I’m completely with you on this – I’d rather not be stung though! The Showlines are mostly already far too inbred. That Pineridge, eh!

by Sting on 29 January 2005 - 08:01

Hi Sugar, Me sting? Never!! Nice to make your aquaintance!!!

by Sugarfoot on 29 January 2005 - 12:01

Hi Sting, The same here – don’t buzz-off too soon though! I know of quite a few instances where half-siblings were mated intentionally – and then largely to save on stud fees! Results not too hot! Trouble is, you only need to go back a handful of generations for all roads to lead back to small number of cardinal studs. I wonder if AI is way to go - may save lot of hazzle! Regards.

PINERIDGE

by PINERIDGE on 30 January 2005 - 20:01

Sugarfoot - just for the record -- My bumper sticker says "Genetic Diversity is Critital to the survival of ANY species" -- I knew where I was going with Aunt/Nephew -- and I have a 10 year old daughter from that and followed up on many siblings -- It is far less an issue than picking up these American pedigrees - and youngsters see 12 different names and think it's a very open breeding - -all the while not realizing that they are all Sundance Kid grandchildren THAT I can't endorse. Cobert's Cardinal was an "accidental" breeding of Reno to his litter sister !! (Some say it was accidentally on purpose) -- there is no excuse for that -- Later, he was undoubtedly bred to other Reno kids/grandkids -- "because they can". I only used 2 close dogs out of the first 3 generations and both of the other two sides were so different there was no severely limited gene pool. They combined East German/ Belgian / and West German working dogs - Not a V or VA show dog among them. just a lot of IPO's and KNPV's, and HGH's. I would never preach inbreeding (especially to save stud fees!) Good grief. I can see where peopel would do it just for that, though. Some time ago, I had a REAL accidental breeding -- BROTHER/SISTER -- and I did the right thing -- I gave the pups away (without papers - and spay/neuter agreements - because I didn't know how they would turn out. Luckly no serious health or orthopedic problems. Young females can have "silent" heats and do a little hootchie-coochie dance for their brother and it's all over !!

by KreighauserGSD on 30 January 2005 - 23:01

LOL!!! Love the hootchie coochie dance statement. That's just funny!!! I agree with you, though. As long as the dog you're inbreeding TO has good lines without any genetic problems, I don't see a HUGE problems with it. The male I am selling is inbred on Treu (father/daughter), but he's an OUTSTANDING male, as far as I'm concerned.





 


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