SV Prejudice Against Sables - Page 4

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by Mackenzie on 24 September 2021 - 08:09

The death knell for the grey dogs,bi-colours,blacks came following an Italian Sieger Show when Walther Martin and Chris Rummel were driving home together. They had see a Male dog with the colour that is prevalent today. At the time this male had the real WOW factor compared to the poor colours that were around at the tIme. The dog is Lasso di Val Sole.

Herman Martin was so impressed with his brothers news that he immediately took steps to make changes. The change came very quickly, so quickly, that I wondered about the means to achieve this.

We must remember that colour does not guarantee correct confirmation as we see today. Also, characters and workability is being lost although there other factors which contribute to this failure on the part of breeders.


by ValK on 24 September 2021 - 10:09

"It is a minimum test, a test of the dogs' nerves."
"So jumping a meter is of no importance really."

think for moment - before taking dog to event how many effort, time and attempts its take to "convince" that dog that this scary guy, appearing in front, not really gonna hurt?
b.t.w. same applies to many sport dogs as well and looks like emphasis on strong prey drive did become sort of solution to offset lack of dominance, boldness and healthy civil aggression in today's WLGS.

in regard of meter jump, if dog belong to working breed, a must have physical features to be capable to comply in work through the size, structure and physical strength. other way what a sense in such dog?


by Hundmutter on 24 September 2021 - 11:09

They don't really need to jump much if they are tending a flock of sheep ?

Now, actually I agree that dogs should be able to jump without difficulty (although I do not believe it is necessary that they should all be able to clear 8 feet straight up, for instance), because I also agree a badly constructed dog, such that it does not have enough spring in its hindquarters - for any reason - would not do very well as ANY kind of Working dog, especially LE.

However, I don't know which dogs Sunsilver speaks of. Jumping ability does not seem to be tested these days at any country's Seigers. But is perfectly obvious to me that many of the (UK) Showlines dogs, a majority of which are constructed with decent toplines and well positioned hocks, can and do jump, and jump well, whatever they are jumping for. These would certainly include any which a few UK breeders are prepared to spend a lot of money on, competing in Germany. I really cannot see them taking their stock & entering it, knowing German-bred stock is probably likely to be judged to excede British dogs performance anyway, and not leaving at home any that are really not up to the job.  I suppose in any competition, anywhere, there may always be a few dogs that are less than exemplary in conformation and fitness, that sneak through; but how many of them are among the dogs that end up with top places ?

by Klossbruhe on 24 September 2021 - 12:09

With regard to jumping, I would point out that at the Sieger Show, all of the dogs in the working class have to have an IGP title. In reality all of the high V and certainly all of the VA dogs have IGP3 or the equivalent. So Sunsilver's comment is way off base. Because if the dogs have IGP3s, they have jumped the 1 meter hurdle at least three times in competition and obviously numerous times in practice.

And as Valk correctly notes, most working lines dogs that compete at the top levels nowdays are trained in prey drive. Very few helpers understand how to work a dog in defense drive properly which can be both dangerous and ruin a dog if done wrong.

And as for healthy civil aggression, I do not know where Valk lives, perhaps somewhere in a rural area where life is dangerous. But in most Western European and North American cities, towns and villages, we cannot nor should we own dogs that have what he calls civil aggression and what I believe he refers to is the old type of suspicious GSD that might go off on someone on a moments notice if they made a sudden or unexpected move, the old farmer's dog. The police and the military do not want such dogs and they are not tolerated in the legal systems of todays world. It is one thing for a dog to defend against a real attack quite another to attack when there might not be one.

As for teaching a dog to defend against a real attack, I do not believe that can be taught. While most GSDs will offer a minimum defense of their owner if they see him being attacked, such as biting at a leg or barking, most will run away once they are hit hard by the attacker. However, some when hit will fight back to the end. It is either in the dog's makeup or not.

Those few dogs that were trained by the military to be killers and sent into buildings where terrorists were hiding in Iraq and Afghanistan to kill whomever they found, almost always could not be retrained to live in normal society. Ditto for the those dogs trained to patrol the dangerous streets of Kabul, Herat, Kandahar and Baghdad. Suspicious dogs willing to attack at a moment's notice because of their civil aggression should not be walking our streets.

by johan77 on 24 September 2021 - 16:09

A wolflike structure is more close to what the founder of the breed favoured, and always functionality over "beauty". The structure that has evolved since then is not about functionality, it´s just breeding for a certain taste with no regards what is suited for a functional workingdog. Before this development there was not so much difference in type and hence you could combine show and work with less problem.


by Hundmutter on 24 September 2021 - 16:09

Because we have recently had a new award set-up for animals in public service (I have referred to these Blue Paw Awards in an earlier post somewhere) we currently have a lot of publicity about e.g. Police Dogs. In relation to the inaugural presentation of these awards, I have now heard of at least 3 GSDs in various Police areas in the UK having survived being stabbed or hacked about the head, by knives or machetes, while still performing their duties, to the extent of retaining their grip on the criminal they were biting to try to bring to a halt. Over a fairly short period of time. There will no doubt be more such stories surfacing. There have certainly been others in the past.

While I agree that a majority of dogs (of any breed) will give up & run, in the face of too great violence, (and I for one would not blame them), I think its worth noting that UK Police GSDs can & do quite often 'hang on in there', which IMO says a lot about the way they are bred and trained / selected.

Oh - and some of them are sables.

by Klossbruhe on 24 September 2021 - 16:09

Stephanitz may have initially favored a wolf-like but by 1930 his idea of the structure he wanted was already changing . Have a look at the double siegerin Stella von Haus Schutting.and also Husan von Haus Schutting. There are many others which indicate that he no longer favored the original concave back.

by johan77 on 24 September 2021 - 17:09

Klossbruhe, thinks Husan looks very good and still quite "wolflike", but quite far from the showlines nowadays in structure, even many workinglines today are not looking like Husan but more showlike in their structure. Thinks this workingline looks very good, similar to Husan, don´t know why they still can´t look similar to this and also be good enough for show, what have changed more than taste?

by Klossbruhe on 24 September 2021 - 18:09

My point was not that Husan and Stella have backs that look the backs of todays show dogs. My point was that Stephanitz's idea of what structure he wanted was evolving, was changing.

Look at his Siegers from his last few years such as Odin vom Stolzenfels
or Cuno vom Georgentor

Their backs are not only different, it could be argued that they are a different type of dog. The musculature of the thighs, the breast, the underline, the croup. Even the heads are different from the dogs of 30 years before.

Again, to reiterate, I am not saying that Stephanitz's idea of structure was that of todays show dogs, but I am saying that he seemed to be moving in that direction, and certainly away from the structure of dogs like 1899 Sieger Jörg von der Krone
Hektor von Schwaben

by Mackenzie on 25 September 2021 - 02:09

Too many people on this database go off of the topic of the thread. Not interesting.



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