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by Juno on 20 September 2018 - 12:09

Agree, and that is one scenario I don’t get. As other than demonstrating control over your dog not sure what it accomplishes.

by apple on 20 September 2018 - 13:09

I think that scenario speaks to why the sport is dominated by Mals/Mal X's at the upper levels. They typically are easy to bring back up in drive after being brought down in drive in order to maintain control such as in the said scenario. So it becomes an issue of selecting dogs for sports they are likely to excel in and breeding dogs to excel in those sports. Many of the Mals and Mal X's in PSA come from KNPV lines. While KNPV doesn't include any type of scenarios like the one we are talking about in PSA, they do breed for very high drive dogs that are social, confident, with a high threshold for defense. So with those traits along with their ability to come up in drive quickly after compulsion, they tend to do well in the upper levels.

by Juno on 20 September 2018 - 13:09

Apple, in general I agree with you, but I am seeing more GSDs migrating to PSA and at least at the lower levels passing at a higher success rate- which as you know is not that easy either. I also think with the recent rule changes with IPO we might see even more GSDs migrating to PSA or other similar sports. Also, on a side note at least with the few people I know who sell dogs to law enforcement and the cops I have spoken too GSDs are regaining some of the ground that they had lost to Malis also. I am talking working line GSDs here.

by apple on 20 September 2018 - 14:09

That would make sense. The nice thing about PSA is that if you obtain a PSA 1, you can continue to compete at that level with the goal of winning the nationals, unlike IPO, where when you have an IPO I you have to move to IPO II. That might piss some people off, but it is part of the rules. I think only one GSD has obtained a PSA 3. Re: the increase in GSDs in LE, I don't know. It is just so hard to find a really good, healthy GSD capable of doing police work. They are more expensive and have shorter working lives. But maybe the pendulum is swinging back the other way. One way I think PSA can help improve the breed has to do with nerves. A GSD that is at all nervy is likely to be run off in a trial. IPO does the minimum for testing for nerve issues and since that is the sport of the GSD, I think, in part, it explains the decline of the breed.

by Juno on 20 September 2018 - 15:09

Apple,

Most dogs that are nervy will be run off the field. Last week during training we had a brand new decoy and a Mali who does both IPO and PSA from our club and bites like a typical maligator when sent on this decoy mis judged and hit him on his chest and after that completely shut down and the decoy had to really work to bring him back up, and this dog typically bites like a monster. Not to brag, my dog even with the issues he was having last week that I mentioned had no problems engaging with this new decoy. So it all depends on the dog. I don’t think it is GSD specific.

The comment about GSDs making a resurgence in law enforcement had more to do with the suitability of GSDs doing patrol work as they seem to be able to better deal with the long hours of inactivity without going crazy and still be able to work when called for. Health and $$s might still put them at a disadvantage but not pure working ability compared to a Mali or a Dutchie. May not be as spectacular in their hits but trust me their bite force can do just as much or more damage. All good representatives of either breed can do the work, Malis are a little easier to find than GSDs. I am sure breeders like Joan can more aptly point out the working qualities of really good GSDs than I can. If I sound biased towards GSD that’s because I am as I can see first hand what a good working GSD can bring to the table vs Malis, Pitts (fighting line), Rottiee (working line) and they are just as good.

by apple on 20 September 2018 - 15:09

One of the things about Mals is that their extreme drive can mask nerve issues. The same is true with GSDs, but, IMO, to a lesser extent. Usually with a GSD, nerve issues are fairly easy to detect. Another issue is that the police and military often don't want aggressive dogs per se, but rather dogs with very high drives. Good luck finding a good Rottweiler any more. There was a time the public complained they were too aggressive. Some of that was probably poor handling/training and some poor breeding. But now the breed is essentially a conformation breed like show line GSDs. The thing with fighting line Pitts is that if bred correctly, human aggression is strongly bred away from. I am biased toward the GSD as well, even though I almost bought a non FCI KNPV line Mal X as my next dog. So far, I think I really lucked out with the GSD I got. Probably not as much luck as help from various people and diligent research.

by Juno on 20 September 2018 - 16:09

Apple,

Same here with my GSD. When you have a good one you know it. The breeder has a very good reputation and was very detailed in asking what I was looking for to match the puppy to me. She is known for that and hit it out of the park. These Malis are pretty impressive to watch but so are the good GSDs.

by Rik on 20 September 2018 - 18:09

really don't know how to add to this thread. I just pretty much ran with the herd for a lot of years.

now I'm reading a thread about a breeder spending 12 years to line breed on a "not sporty" dog. not sporty seems to be the negative quality.

but, there must have been many positive qualities to cause this breeder to stick with this line.

personally, I think "sporty" is a waste of GSD. I am just so surprised to find someone with such dedication and ability to produce a GSD with social and civil ability and to stick with it for this number of years.

I am really hoping this breeder shares some insight on what the original targets and goals were and why some dogs met them and some did not.

Rik

by Gustav on 21 September 2018 - 13:09

I could be wrong, but I think that EVERY breeder that has targets and goals has some dogs that meet them and some that did not.

by duke1965 on 21 September 2018 - 13:09

juno writes, malis are easyer to find than GSD LOLLOL where would that be, all the hundreds of breeders in central europe that breed dogs for LE, almost NONE breeds pure malis, most mix them with GSD, to get better nerves and better nosework, 

 

if we find 100 dogs for LE less than 15 % will be malinois, mostly crossbreds looking like one, purebred malis,a few

some individual people have preferences, 2 clients now request pure malis, simply because of temperature and humidity in these countries they prefer them, other large HOT dog buying countries dont like them mainly because due to hectic/high drive they dont last long in hot areas

for me, a good dog is one that is suitable for the job, can be any breed or mix, our new LE breedingprogram is mostly GSD , they also need less work in exposure socializing than malinois, but we have selected several pedigree malinois as well for breeding(non from known IPO podium dogs LOL)

@ gustav, the first litter that has a 100% score must be born yet Wink Smile



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