Working to get my dog to get more serious - Page 24

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by joanro on 19 September 2018 - 20:09

Pragre, you have argued endlessly that training cannot be " disappeared" ! Guess for you it's fluid, like gender is to Hussein.
I'll stick to what I know.
Prager

by Prager on 19 September 2018 - 20:09

Susie don't be cryptic.

Prager

by Prager on 19 September 2018 - 20:09

Joan, apples, and oranges.   Yes, training - what is learned first ( default) or later  - can not disappear,   but conditioning through extinction does.

susie

by susie on 19 September 2018 - 21:09

So dogs don't LEARN by making use of classical or operant conditioning any more...
We really should stop at this point.

by joanro on 19 September 2018 - 21:09

Pragre, your last post indicates this topic, which is simple, is being over-thought by you. It's getting beyond rediculous.

I'm going to go feed my horses and Anatolians.
Prager

by Prager on 19 September 2018 - 21:09

Susie conditioning is achieved through repetition. Conditioning is not necessary for the dog to learn something or have a knowledge of something. That knowledge may be achieved through learning process or it is instinctually inherited. Like dog instinctually knows that smell of food means food. The dog does not need conditioning for that. However I, you, ... same as Pavlov, may condition the dog to salivate when the dog consistently hears the ring of the bell before the food is given because the dog's brain expects food and bunch of automatic ( no thought or decision involved) preparatory actions will happen. They are among others secretion of insulin, endorphin,... and saliva and so on.

LEARNING.

Or trainer may teach the dog that when he says SIT then the pressure will come on his but to sit. ( please do not bore me with better methods to train sit this is just an example). Dogs then learners that if he hears SIT! he must make a conscious decision to sit. He has to think about it. This knowledge will not extinct when  the behavior is not repeated. Same as you will never forget that 1+1=2 even if you do not think about it for 50 years.  If the dog is then subjected to 100+ or so ( large number) repetition the dog will get conditioned and will respond automatically meaning he will not have to think about it. In another word, this behavior becomes" Automatic". That is a nature of conditioning. If however, the trainer stops rewarding the dog for his performance then the conditioning will extinct while the knowledge of the behavior is still there - except it is not automatic anymore.  

 In another example, Pavlov's dogs did stop salivating upon NOT being fed after they heard the bell and they would salivate less and less untill they stopped even though Pavlov rang his bell. That is called an extinction of conditioning. 


susie

by susie on 20 September 2018 - 19:09

Instincts are genetically inherited, not "learned" behavior, that said we are able to make use of said instincts by either enforcing, suppressing, or redirecting them ( how? by making use of conditioning ๐Ÿ˜€).

Teaching the command sit - no "thinking" involved, but conditioning again, be it praise, food, toy, or force.

"Extinction" -

Today's science distinguishes between a lot of different cases of extinction -

- Suppressed, but not lost
- Lost
- Redirected
- Replaced
- and some more,

always depends on the quality of the original and the new attraction / learned behavior ( based on conditioning ๐Ÿ˜Ž).
Prager

by Prager on 20 September 2018 - 21:09

Susi, please do not confuse the masses by changing what I have said. Nowhere have I said that instincts are learned. That is your creative license in action to which I object since this is not a novel. I have said that:"  knowledge may be achieved through learning process or it is instinctually inherited."

 

Then you say: "Teaching the command sit - no "thinking" involved, but conditioning again, be it praise, food, toy, or force."

I am not sure what you are trying to say. But I can take a stab on it and to that, I say this.

Training has several stages:

Learning,
conditioning,
practicing,
and working.
During conditioning faze a dog does not learn anything new per se, but upon arrival of stimulus the brain is being conditioned to bypass part of the brain which involves decision making and the behavior becomes automatic. It is a time-saving signal shortcut which enables an animal to survive.  It is a survival necessity since if the stimulus would have to involve a decision to react, then that takes much longer then if the response is conditioned to bypass such decision making slow down and to be automatic. This is conditioned into the brain by repetitions where "nature" recognizes that if the act is repeated continually then it can be (it is advantageous for survival)   automated. You can consider conditioning to be part of the learning but I do not. Learning and conditioning are totally and fundamentally different processes. Conditioning is conditioning and learning is learning. That is why we have 2 different words for it.

If the reward of repetition disappears then the conditioning is not necessary anymore and conditioning of particular behavior extincts and now the brain directs the signal through the decision making part of the brain and the animal has to make decisions  -  it is not conditioned anymore. This is a simplistic way but true way to see the process. 

Also, thank you for pointing out to the facts that there are a different type of extensions which I do not see relevant to this discussion.

by Juno on 18 October 2018 - 14:10

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQuihOOCrHw
Here is very short video of what could have gone very seriously wrong. A little bit of background - this is the first time we have done leg bites. He had no problems biting the leg the first 2 times once I guided him to the leg. The 3rd time thought I would give him a little more leash to see if he would target the leg. Big mistake, he totally bypassed the leg and went straight for the upper arm where he normally targets. Decoy was not wearing a suit. Poor handling on my part and both decoy and I should have known better as my dog always targets the man, suite is incidental for him. Lesson learned. Never again.


by apple on 18 October 2018 - 15:10

IMO, the decoy was too far away from the dog when he is learning to target a specific part of the leg. The leg only needs to be a foot or two away and that will prevent that type of potential issue. Also, as I mentioned to you, if your dog is going to do a bicep bite in PSA, then he needs to learn either a calf bite or tricep bite for an escape bite. The only reason to teach a front leg bite in PSA is if the dog is going to be a leg biter as opposed to a bicep biter.


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