2-2 Line/In breeding - Page 9

I am a person who analyzes pedigrees quite often, because of lifelong study of thousands of pedigrees over the years. I can unequivocally tell you that without identifying the parents, grandparents,etc, it is impossible to answer your initial questions.

The info I was wanting to look for is when and how dogs in these lines died. I don't know if or where that's available.

Your breeder may have this information, especially if s/he is experienced and has done a lot of research into the lines s/he has been breeding.  Particularly since this litter is such a close line breeding.  If there is only one vet (or few) in a small town, this information may be available from the local veterinarian(s).  In some states, the University veterinary school does necropsies, so information could be there.  If a dog is well known, or died in the line of duty/on the job, or died in an unusual way, there may be newspaper, online news, or online industry articles.  Also check the rainbow bridge type sites.  If the dog in question was a therapy or service dog, the organization may have the information.  It may also be that some of the dogs are still alive   Sometimes, unfortunately, the information exists, but the dog's owner or the organization will not release the information or allow anyone else to, either.

And... sometimes a Google search with the dog's name in quotations (try all possible permutations and then be absolutely certain it's the correct dog.  Maybe have to cross reference AKC and/or several other sources.

 

 

 

Being familiar with the names and titles of a dog in a pedigree is one thing; understanding the traits, trends, negatives/positives, of phenotype/genotype of said dogs or siblings in a pedigree is necessary to give educated opinion on any inbreeding or linebreeding....and even then there is wide area of chance of conclusion  not being applicable.

I get a kick out of reading and hearing about line breeding....
Gustav makes an important point. The people that know what they do as far as breeding is concerned understand for generations the dogs involved. I got this awakening 25+ years ago when I went to Europe and visited my friends ,who were breeders of GS . They knew all the show or all the trial results . They knew the mother , father , grandparents , great granparents, siblings , littermates , cousins etc etc about the dogs , specifically the dogs themselves [ not just paper info ] and lineages. I would just about to say , almost anything and everything. Yes the phenotype and genotype as well. In this way they would make an intelligent guestimation and planned for certain results , sometimes actually generations ahead. That being said ... perhaps on those terms , some one can justify at times line breeding. The inference in this post is : if you do not have the familial information .. then most likely you have no business line breeding.

So , let's start with common sense : Why is it that in most cultures of humanity is/was mating with cousins taboo ? Given those reasons then why would what applies to humans not be applicable to other animals ? If you are consccientiuos , why would you ever consider breeding 2/2 and personally I would add , 2/3.

Aside from my friends that I referenced, many people that do line breeding , in plain English , have no idea what the heck they are doing. There are a multitude of traits and genetic combinations that on paper look so wonderful but that is not reral life. first of all , we see on paper 50% from mother , 50% from father .. but in genetics , nature doesn't work that way ... Anybody knowledgable and educated in genetics understands this. An illustration : sometimes the not so best seemingly looking female , will the right male will throw off incfedible offspring ? Uneducated people would think their common sense would tell them , the best looking fenale and the best looking male and you get best looking progeny. Not so . Another , tilted working GS .. not every GS puppy will be cut out to the level in working as the parents.

The most important feature when I hear someone talk about line breeding is : Not only are the traits they desire , if they know what they are doing , intensified, BUT more so , here is what kills me : the very very harmful** deleterious** traits are also intensified. To add to that mess , simultaneously when there is instensifying one trait , you lose other very very good traits* ! THAT is the real true scoop. And what I have found through 30+ years in dealing with GS , not to mention I have had GS for a lifetime... that the GS has paid , as a breed , a very very heavy price for the past breeding practices. Mainly because they are a commodity first and a breed secondly and the past intensive line breeding , just look at the sate of the breed today . Anyone that has been around for a generation , just look what has happened to the GS and the loss in the breed today .

Just think about this : If you say : that out of the multitudes of GS , you cannot [or will not ], get two GS , male and female , and be able to produce in outcrossing what your need . Then that is a very deplorable and sad state of affairs for the GS. When I hear 2/2 breeding.. whoever even thinks thisis acceptable , then shame shame shame on you - IMOp you have no right to breed and what I want the novice people to think about is running as far away from this type breeding and the offspring that you can . Don't be expoited into thinking that you are getting a masterpiece. There is a lot more to breeding than putting two dogs together ands as some have referenced looking at two pieces of apper. Let the buyer beware.

Yyou know what I find un amusingly funny,
I seem to recall more than a few years back it was said that the total outcross was in no way beneficial to the breed
And just to clarify I did the tight breeding one time and one time only.
I am more than happy with what I have been and still am producing.
I think I actually have had a bit better success than many a breeder in the US with three certified police k9's and a couple in competitions and some just good old healthy family dogs
So when i said that
a some times youu must step outside the box i found that crossing the lines produces very nice dogs

I prefer breeding with no common ancestry in at least 3 or 4 generations. 
It's getting harder and harder to find it.
Yes there is less uniformity, I'm good with that.

 

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sitas mom, you are hitting the nail on the head, if everybody is outcrossing you will have NO unrelated lines left to outcross to

to keep the option of outcrossing open, one need unrelated lines, and in order to maintain unrelated lines, the only option is to linebreed

Sitasmom, you must be referring to showlines; I don't see any problem avoiding linebred working lines. I do see a lot of backmassing on certain dogs, but if you know where to look, there are a lot of open bloodlines from which to choose.

Personally, as Duke alluded to, I prefer to keep some linebred dogs and outcrossed dogs. If we outcross everything all the time, we'll have nothing left in the way of "new" bloodlines to introduce.

 

 

Well the most stupid thing that most of the people only talk about the males when it come about linebreeding very funny....

And if you do linebreeding you do not only 2.2

But you do 2.2/3.3/4.4/5.5/6.6 etc  you take all the genes

I have seen  years ago a dog who was linebreeding 2..2 .5  on Pike Schafbachmuhle

that dog  came not  any close what Pike was, but if I look to the female  who he was breeding out something makes more clear....to me