http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/english/200101/27/eng20010127_61236.html is a short article on the blossoming Chinese biotechnology companies, particularly cloning. The Chinese have little or no problem with the ethics of cloning; there is a distinct possibility that this could have a tremendous impact on how dogs are bred for various agencies and the military. If a police department has a GSD or Rotty that they consider legendary, why not have ten of them, especially if the price of cloning drops due to commercial competition? So far, the focus is on prime livestock (at $200,000 a pop), but it is a trend that is sure to migrate toward our furry friends, most probably within 10 years. Would I buy a cloned dog? No, but I wish I had the DNA of 3 of my deceased faithful companions, and would gladly pay five to ten thousand dollars to have one of them back.

totally against cloning.   what is to say that even if you had a dog cloned it would be 100% the same?   so many environmental issues have to be taken into account.   how could you make sure that one of your past companions would be raised exactly like the first one was?  surely you have changed since that time, whats to say the way you would raise  "doggy the second"  would be the same?  even if you were able to duplicate the rearing of the pup you have taken out the fact that it would not be raised by its true mother. 

just something to think about.  as you can tell i have a tendicy to lean to the "nurture" side of the line.

john

NO, this is an interesting subject, because I think cloning is coming.  It's only a matter of time.  I would bet that the some of the first progeny will have serious problems. Now since your writing style suggests you are a male, I wonder if you have any experience with K9 acquisitions or procurement for law enforcement or military duty or do you know anyone that is a K9 procurement officer.?

I think in general the chinese military K9 folks tend to be quite serious and very meticulous about documenting breedings and keeping accurate records. The folks I have heard about who were Chinese Military K9 procurement officers were very honest and ethical, and very professional.  Not always so in the USA.  I know of one case where a dog was stolen from a very nice single, somewhat easily intimidated lady breeder, done by a gov't badgeholder abusing his credentials and uniform, making felonious terroristic threats and the papers were later faked as an attempt to cover up the theft, so I could never be too critical of any honest breeding or honest registering of puppies, even if they were cloned, in the USA or China or anywhere else. If this case ever comes out in the newspapers and on the internet it could generate quite a few waves because there are affidavits of witnesses and actual documented evidence existing in more than one location. As of now the victim chooses to let sleeping dogs lie. But I might add that a file has been opened on this case and assigned a case number, and is now on hold by a certain federal investigative agency, only to be be activated if requested by the victim or her family at any time in the future if any of the threats made are attempted to be acted upon.

<what is to say that even if you had a dog cloned it would be 100% the same?   so many environmental issues have to be taken into account. >

I think this is the most exciting thing about cloning.  It will help us see exactly the influence of the never ending questions with regard to nature vs nurture.

SueAnn, I guess one of the first questions I would like to see answered is what difference would occur in health and longevity for clones fed raw versus a top commercial dry dog food like Royal Canin.  Would we find that the GSD breeders that feed raw are correct in their belief that they spend less money on GSDs few raw than when they used commercial dry food.

correction: that they spend less money on vet bills fed raw than when they used commercial dry food, and the dogs fed raw lived longer.

Diet, early spay/neuter, exercise, training, socialization all can make a dog a different dog.  I'd like to see scientific studies with clones to determine effects of all...

I agree it is the enviroment, We had one or 2, I would give a hefty sum to have back. However, they were raised with our kids. They went camping, shopping, swimming, softball tourney's, soccer games, we traveled as a family and it was never discrimated as to how many legs, Hell at one point we had a dam parriot and that SOB, went to. I did not have time to raise them as a dogs they were just one of the kids. I think that has a lot to do with how well rounded they were. Now i would have to work at it to make sure of thier social skills.

clone dogs so we can run a bunch of test on them.  doesnt seem right to me, not to humane either.

john 

me neither. 

I was thinking of it more this way.  Let's say that a scientist could clone a litter of  8 males from a top healthy Sieger (from zuchscha or profung) of ideal temperment  and health and sell them to 8 different homes (which would be easy to do if the price was right).  And half the new owners agreed to feed raw and the other half premium dry food (continuing patterns they have for years with their other dogs).  Then compare the vet records and longevity and Sch abilities.  It might give a good idea how important food is in health and longevity.  Of course the cost would probably prohibit this being done in mass.

so would all of these clones be fixed?  some of the top studs already have several hundred progeny.  multiply that by 8 and you have a registration nightmare. 

i know this is not the scenerio you have in mind, but when it comes to dogs and money this is the kind of thing that can happen.

i can think of at least one kennel that actually has the word "genetics" in their name.   may be simple now, but  i can see it turning into a special market.

"yes i would like to start out with some fero, and a little umsa, and top it off with asko"

john

I wouldn't assume a scientific study would automatically equate to inhumane treatment of animals.  We all are doing our own unofficial studies with each and every dog we raise whether we acknowledge the data or not.

I'm most interested in knowing more about the effect of diets, socialization and early spay/neuter on long term health.  It would be quite interesting to learn our big dollar diets truly affect long term health and longevity.  I've seen some pretty nice dogs who were fed crap for food.  Certainly noone in the dog food industry would publish a study that proved feeding grocery store brands enhanced anything   One of my thoughts about socialization is in regard to biochemical changes that occur in the body because of fear.  If a dog is well socialized and very comfortable in his own skin, one could draw the conclusion that socialization might equal better long term health.  A well controlled study of clones may determine if the fear chemicals truly had a negative effect on health.

I'd like to see cloning be of benefit to the dogs themselves...not just used as a means to continued human greed at the expense of animals.

I specifically avoided mentioning genetic engineering in this thread, as a GSD with no dysplasia, bloating, or thyroid problems, and a high ball/prey drive, long lifespan, along with the ability to seamlessly bond with the handler needs no further perfection. Unfortunately, some scientists feel a need to fix something, especially if it is not broken.