Vet check question, during a vet visit should the vet pull a 3 month pups legs back to check hips - Page 2

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Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 30 May 2016 - 05:05

My 'mentor' became convinced that vets rotating puppies
hips (to check for ? dislocation from the socket and/or soft
tissue laxity) sometimes managed to unseat a femoral head !
To the extent that in latter years she refused to allow any vet
to do this to any of her pups. Don't know whether there was
anything in it; theoretically, as Les Pauling said above, this
shouldn't be about to do any harm.
I hope, jagger42, that it is just a bit of soft tissue damage and
that she stops "running funny" in a few days !


Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 30 May 2016 - 06:05

Bubba, re "incomplete inheritance / presentation", you may be interested in this: Having discussed early attempts by researchers (Grounds, Shalles, Snavely, Abbott and others) to pin HD to first a simple autosomal recessive, then a dominant with 'irregular recessives', and then Burns & Fraser's 'incomplete penetrance', (1966), " Genetics of the Dog " (page 149 in my copy) goes on to say: "However there is considerable evidence accumulating now to suggest very clearly that HD is controlled by several genes and that it must be considered a polygenic

character with visible expression being determined by a

combination of genetic and environmental factors

This is very clearly shown in the data compiled in Table

29 ... (which) refer to various countries with differing

standards as to what constitutes 'normality', so that

comparison over the various papers is difficult. 

Nonetheless it is apparent that dysplastic stock can

occur in any kind of mating but that the better the

parental status for hip structure the better, on average,

will be their progeny.  This is typical of a polygenic

character in which there are gentic and environmental

components involved.

It is generally accepted by most workers involved

that HD is a polygenic trait.  It should therefore

have a heretibility."

The author,  Malcolm B. Willis, wrote this in 1989.

Dr Willis was Senior Lecturer in Animal Breeding

& Genetics at the University of Newcastle (UK).

He was also a GSD owner, breeder and judge.

 

Okay he still didn't have an identifiying letter code

for the genes involved, and this was pre- modern

genome mapping,  but it is more up to date than

the "incomplete inheritance" theory ...


bubbabooboo

by bubbabooboo on 30 May 2016 - 11:05

In the case of HD and most conditions correlation does not prove causation ... polygenetic is correlation speak ... everything is either polygenetic or it is not and science uses polygenetic to explain the unknown. If some disease or trait is very simple and only involves a few genes with some predictability it is not polygenetic otherwise it is polygenetic using the simplistic Mendelian genetics of those such as Willis. Willis et. al. simply outlived their theories and the now antiquated Mendelian genetics are insufficient to explain polygenetic traits. Hip Dysplasia and most diseases have a huge environmental component that likely influences both the inheritance pattern and the expression of the disease. Put another way until science can account for environmental influences polygenetic traits will never be understood or preventable. The simple facts are that environment, environment X genetics, and non-genetic factors play a bigger role in HD than genetics alone. Otherwise HD would not be called polygenetic at present. This is why the OFA strategy of breeding out HD based on hip scores will never succeed. OFA hip scores can only predict what is but not what can be.  Dog owners, dog food makers, pesticide companies making dog pest control products and others profiting from products influencing our dog's health desperately want to blame every disease and syndrome on genetics because that eleminates them and their products and management as the possible cause of dog diseases and deaths.  The big tobacco companies used the same logic and lies to try to blame lung cancer on genetics and not on their products.


melba

by melba on 30 May 2016 - 13:05

Had a vet do this and cause damage to one hip, resulting in a failing OFA grade later on that oNE hip. I never again let any vet manhandle puppies legs. It was a mistake on my part for allowing it.

Melissa

bubbabooboo

by bubbabooboo on 30 May 2016 - 14:05

In Germany where many if not most houses have stairs ( land prices are very high so houses go up and not out ) there was a concern about stairs and puppies using them such that many owners would not let their puppies use the stairs and would carry the puppy up and down the stairs. Physical injuries during rapid growth in a puppy can result in abnormal hips and elbows. The more common injuries are compression injuries to bones and joints from the weight of a larger dog, animal or object smashing down on the puppy, muscle and tissue tears, and ligament and tendon injuries that cause misalignment or lack of proper tension in a developing joint or bone. Humans take 14 years or longer for bone development while dogs do the same in 14 months or less depending on breed. Bone density and strength is also highly dependent on early growth, exercise, and nutrition.

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 30 May 2016 - 16:05

Bubba, Malcolm Willis may be dead now but yes he
certainly outlived what he wrote in 1989. But he was
still teaching and writing until not long before he died,
and I have no recollection that he recanted anything !
Which you would think he might have done if what you
say is unarguable.
Particularly since the all breed scheme, but particularly
the GSD part of it, run under the auspices of the KC / BVA
and before that the GSD League, were really as much his
'baby' as that of anybody else involved, and he continued
to administer the published records of scores.


bubbabooboo

by bubbabooboo on 30 May 2016 - 17:05

I took an animal breeding genetics class in 1976 while in graduate school and I was majoring in plant breeding.  The professors were lecturing on and on about results that I had seen with my own eyes and knew to be wrong.  This was during the time that Mendelian genetics was thought to be all there was.  I asked some probing questions and the professors told me that science knew "everything" about genetic inheritance and there was no room for discussion.  I changed majors.  In the 40 years hence the old science of Mendelian genetics has been replaced and amended with more complex non-Mendelian and epigenetic science.  Science marches on.  Any breeding schemes based on a 1975 - 1990 understanding of genetics need to be revisited and amended to account for discoveries and new science in the last 25.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Mendelian_inheritance

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CoRR_hypothesis

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics

 


susie

by susie on 30 May 2016 - 17:05

Hundmutter: "However there is considerable evidence accumulating now to suggest very clearly that HD is controlled by several genes and that it must be considered a polygenic character with visible expression being determined by a combination of genetic and environmental factors."

That´s still the official belief of SV - the club supports scientific research for decades ( with a lot of money ) now, it´s 100% profed and tested that HD parents do inherit HD to their siblings. There have been a lot of researches with a lot of dogs...

We are able to influence "environmental factors", but at least in my mind it would be criminal to "forget" genetics.

I guess it will take decades to really know about the "genetic inheritance", and to "find" the xyz genes resonsible for HD, but in the meanwhile all we can do is to sort out affected dogs ( and for me it´s less evil to sort out any "injured dog" than to keep a genetically effected dog within the gene pool ).

I would like to see the DUTY to x-ray ( and send in ) EVERY German Shepherd dog, no matter if this dog will be bred later on or not... I didn´t always think like this, but right now ( and "right now" means "for decades" ) we betray ourselves every time we don´t send "bad results" to SV or any other organization.

Won´t happen, because their is no "law" for it. We are living in a "free world"....

bubbabooboo

by bubbabooboo on 30 May 2016 - 18:05

So what is the prediction accuracy of x-ray results in predicting the hip and elbow scores of the next generation of GSD ??? I have seen no results that confirm it is better than flipping a coin (50/50). As an example if I breed an official OFA dysplastic GSD female to an OFA good GSD male what will be the hip scores of their offspring?? High carbohydrate diets likely contribute more to HD in many dog breeds than genetics directly. The only way that genetics is involved in many diseases is that the canine nor human body is adapted to process a high carbohydrate or sugar loaded diet. Most dog owners could do more to improve the hips and health of their dogs by feeding a species appropriate diet ( low carbohydrate ). It was once thought that diabetes was genetic but now we know based on research that high carbohydrate diets filled with sugars and artificial sweeteners have contributed more to obesity and diabetes than any other cause. The staggering rate of increased obesity and diabetes in countries with a Coke and Lucky Charms diet such as the USA can not be explained by genetics as genetic factors and expression does not change with such speed. It is the environment of dogs and humans that has changed most rapidly in the last 100 years and the change in diseases and health problems reflects this change not a genetic causation. Selection of dogs for breeding based on x-ray hip scores is selection based on phenotype not genotype.

susie

by susie on 30 May 2016 - 18:05

 

Justus Liebig University Giessen, Dr Reiner Beuing

 

An image

Vater = father

blue block = "normal" mother

orange block = "fast normal" mother

yellow block = "noch zugelassen" mother

HD1 = "normal" hips

HD2 = "fast normal" hips

HD3 = "noch zugelassen" hips

they didn´t even use "mild", or "severe" hips...

http://images.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wingertshaus.de%2Fpics%2FEH%2Fsvok0ok1.gif&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wingertshaus.de%2Fgesundheit%2Fhd.html&h=350&w=562&tbnid=Zzv8z2ZOmslmcM%3A&docid=8OGTrH76MY0tOM&ei=S4pMV6GnLePv6QSrgK7YAg&tbm=isch&client=firefox-b&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=1707&page=1&start=0&ndsp=30&ved=0ahUKEwjh-OjJuoLNAhXjd5oKHSuACysQMwgfKAAwAA&bih=915&biw=1280

Sorry, it´s written in German language, but in easy words the result of the study was "nature AND nurture".






 


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