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by Swarnendu on 21 August 2016 - 09:08

Koots- Thanks, quite an accomplishment, wasn't that ? Wink Smile Teeth Smile

BTW, what TITLE have you conferred upon yourself after the accomplishment of reading the post by Les in its entirety? Wink Smile

What? That's not what you meant? My bad (English)!

Tongue Smile


by Swarnendu on 21 August 2016 - 09:08

Susie: "In Germany we call "title" "Ausbildungskennzeichen".
Ausbildung = training, apprenticeship
Kennzeichen = indication, marking

English speaking countries translated to "titles", everybody understands the term, so I am fine with it."

I am also fine with it. English is not OUR first language, so it's fine to let the English speaking people to decide how they want their OWN language to evolve or deteriorate. Wondering

But, I'm ALSO fine with it when someone decides to (rightly) point out that Training indications/markings should actually be translated as qualifications, not titles.

Why aren't you fine with it, Susie? Do you think people wouldn't be able to understand the term "Qualification" ?


susie

by susie on 21 August 2016 - 10:08

People are able to understand ( or misunderstand ) a lot of terms... Shades Smile

but in this special case it´s a term used in dog sport for decades, even within written rules/statements, not only by single people "on the street". I guess the meaning of title/titled in connection to Schutzhund is widely accepted and understood, whereas in Schutzhund the term "qualification" as far as I know is used in case of "qualifying for events" like WUSV trials.

Do you realize with the two of us two non native English speakers are discussing the meaning of English terms..... guess, we should stop this nonsense....Clown


by Swarnendu on 21 August 2016 - 11:08

"Do you realize with the two of us two non native English speakers are discussing the meaning of English terms..... guess, we should stop this nonsense...."

Completely agree!! We shouldn't even think of to START taking sides in the FIRST place..... Roll eyes


susie

by susie on 21 August 2016 - 13:08

Your advice came too late at least for me... Red Smile


Les The Kiwi Pauling

by Les The Kiwi Pauling on 24 August 2016 - 15:08

[Bavarian Wagon] 19.88.2016 - 16:08
"Stay on your little island and enjoy calling titles whatever you'd like."
What "
little island"? I think you'd have trouble tending & weeding 113,729 sq.km, which is 28,102,935 acres - or, if you prefer, 43,911 square miles. But that's only the island MY property is on, and I own only ¼ acre of it. My whole country has 268,021 sq.km. Whereas Bavaria has a puny 70,553 sq.km.

Read definitions 11.1.  22.1,  2.2,  2.3 and the Origin in

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/title
to prepare you to debate THAT word in a knowledgeable way.

"
Language evolves with culture and what's easiest for people to use."
That depends on one's culture.
Most of the Europeans - especially those in or around Deutschland & the Netherlands - who migrated to my country, prized education and were commonly tri-lingual. I am ¼ Scottish, ¼ Welsh, ¼ English
(with a smidgen of Irish about 6 generations behind it) and ¼ Tasmanian Devil. The Scots admired education so much that when they settled Dunedin their main goal (after survival) was to erect a university. My Welsh ancestry loved language (but WHY did they have stick so many extra letters in it?) and music. Before coming here my English ancestor was the first person nominated for a Victoria Cross in the Crimea Campaign (his superior's superior vetoed it because Sgt Bosworth had insolently crossed No Man's Land 3 times DEMANDING supplies for his troops and DEMANDING reinforcements, instead of just quietly dying as per "The Charge of the Light Brigade"); he also fought in China's Boxer Revolution before coming here for the NZ Land Wars. My Tasmanian grandmother was a LOT more cultured than her origin would suggest, So, between them, I too prize culture & education.
Whatever you might think of our Maori language, it DOES have the world's longest place name:  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUGN-12HHwQ  - and THAT chap cannot pronounce it, but   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1g0Hsp4rVzU&list=RD1g0Hsp4rVzU#t=25   can.

"
Thankfully there are more people doing dog sport in my city in the United States than on the whole island of NZ."
Your education obviously didn't include the willingness to CHECK before making a fool of yourself. I haven't counted how many islands NZ has, but you are welcome to count them in  
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_islands_of_New_Zealand   to establish that there are closer to 200 than just ONE. In addition, we have responsibility for several dozen other islands in the Pacific and Antarctic oceans.

It is quite possible that your
(not-named by you) city has more people than my whole nation - we LIKE having room around us! But it means that print-runs for books are uneconomically short here. Has anyone in your city come close to emulating William Shakespeare or any of the great British playwrights or poets?

BTW - why do so many people in YOUR city feel the need for a dog that will bite (or at least grab where they think a protective sleeve is), but so few in my whole NATUON do?

"
I'll just keep calling the titles/qualifications what most people understand them to be instead of getting on some high horse about old English definitions of words and how they have traditionally been used."
Of COURSE you will - but stubbornness is not a virtue when one is in the wrong. Nor is refusal to LEARN ever a virtue. You obviously consider that you know more about the English language than do the people who operate the Oxford Dictionaries.
I'll bet you don't know "
most people"
(do you know how MANY people there are at the moment?) - and that those people you DO know are NOT in the upper levels of literary ability.
But do me a favour - run for the presidency of the USA
(that's the USA nation, not the USCA) in 2020 - assuming that it hasn't been nuked out of existence if Trump precedes you.

"
Get back into the show ring"
I haven't been there since my 4 years old bitch was 6 months 1 day - and that was just a Ribbon Parade for training judges and for giving young stock experience. And before that I hadn't been in the show ring since Xmas 1994, for a GSZD club Ribb0n Parade. As my left leg was amputated in June 2015, I certainly won't be entering any ch.show rings in the future!


"
Maybe show people would call the things behind the name titles as well if they'd actually try to get them once in a while."
More ignorant unawareness of what is REALLY happening in the world. Even in the USA some "
show people" do get "things behind the name" of their GSD - see

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=548068-nocturnes-navigator
He and several others in that pedigree have "things behind the name" - 8 of the first 14 actually have something worth thinking about, although I cannot inspect their score-books.
But oh I LOATHE the artificial, unfunctional way the sire has been "stacked"! However, it looks as though the BSZSs and British shows are going to have the GSDs standing themselves, now that officials have recognised that various show-is-all breeders & handlers have gone WAY too far with their deviations from a HERDING structure.




[susie] 19.8.2016 - 18:08
  
http://images.akc.org/pdf/AKC_Recognized_Working_Dog_OrganizationsLL.07.2016.pdf?_ga=1.166057852.397869741.1459620975

 

Which, in addition to demonstrating what I already knew (that the AKC is too arrogantly "independent" to speak & write ENGLISH! I remember its "tome" when it decided to accept SchH but insisted on inventing about 3 "beginner" tests before getting to SchH1) and so it MISuses the term "title", and states the highly ambiguous:
"
All recognized Working Dog titles appear after a dog’s name. They will appear on a dog’s pedigree. When a dog is entered in an AKC event, the event superintendent or secretary may, but is not required to, include recognized Working Dog titles in the catalog. Working Dog titles may not be included in the annual tabulation of titles that appears in the April edition of the Gazette."
Firstly, why did the AKC capitalise "
Working Dog"? That is not a proper noun. Grammatically, "working" is an adjective, and "dog" is a common noun, The only TITLE I know of that uses the word "Working" is the WT.Ch. title possessed by such as
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2252796-imanicon-of-sarelle
and her magnificent maternal grandsire
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2204494-be-my-yusha-of-sarelle
and his dam and granddam & greatgranddam & greatgreatgranddam.

 

In the pdb and the minds of everyone who DOES speak English and has a grasp of the etymology of words. the "working titles" such as HGH Sieger and WT.Ch. , and the half-DogSport/half-conformation Universal Sgr. title go IN FRONT OF the names.
 

And the page you quote from merely yet again PROVES that the AKC doesn't write English, doesn't use ENGLISH definitions, grammar, punctuation, spelling! The AKC has NO "WD.Ch." title. The nearest it gets are the WDS,1, WDS,2 and WDS.3 that are QUALIFICATIONS and go AFTER the Dobermanns' names. See   http://www.akc.org/events/titles/
 

In your quote, start with the "When" - its normal use is along the lines of "At that moment", but a common alternative is "Once" in the sense of "after that has been done".
"
Entered" - does that mean the moment at which the entry form is received, or the moment when the competitor moves into the competition ring?
As for "
may not be" - could they have chosen a vaguer - and therefore even less meaningful - term? Among the interpretations that should have come to the composer's mind are "MUST NOT be", and "don't need to be".


"Languages do change due to daily use,"

They DO so very slowly, except where education is poor, where the roots of language and the "rules" of grammar & pronunciation are hopelessly inadequately learned - or the language has too few root words suitable for denoting modern concepts, which is why the Maori language is being rapidly increased, often by using transliterations such as William => Wiremu, (a) book => (he) pukapuka.
It is common to find that educated Africans and Indians speak & write better English than do many of the natives of Britain and the USA.

You are probably unaware that, some time in the 1950s, Britain decided to conduct an experiment where children were taught a purely phonetic language. And so there were different symbols used for the "
oo" in boot vs the "oo" in book, the "th" in this vs the "th" in thin - and the children learned QUICKLY! (see   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initial_Teaching_Alphabet   for a 45-letters successor to that attempt.) My intake at teachers' college was being prepared to teach NZ children to read using the materials from Britain. But the British plan was that although children were TAUGHT using phonetic - sorry... FONETIK - spelling, they were to be switched back to conventional English at, I think, age 10. And before we graduated, the British had discovered that having to switch back to conventional spellings as used in newspapers etc resulted in the children becoming even worse readers than the children who had never begun with that special set of characters. End of experiment.


"that´s the reason why dictionaries have to be updated every couple of years..."
Like hell they do! What they do is, each time they decide that the FREQUENCY of enough words has diminished or increased so much as to need the "new" words included they then omit enough out-of-fashion words to make room for the "new" ones. But trying to read a copy of Shakespear's manuscripts will certainly show you that spellings have changed as literacy was allowed to reach more than just the nobility
(being nobles, they spelt in any way they considered THEIR right, and it was up to lowly paid scribes to make sense of everything).
It is the MEANINGS that bother me - I was horrified when the Oxford English Dictionary decided about a year ago that, because almost EVERYONE was now poorly taught and was conspicuously saying/writing nonsense such as "I literally jumped out of my skin", they had to change the entries for literal, literally to make them identical to their
OPPOSITESfigurative, figuratively!
 

"but a lot of elder people do have problems with it ..."
Almost as much as the people who sloppily rave away to one another without realising that each of them has a different meaning for the words being misused. Poor old interpreters and translators - they have HUGE problems nowadays! We are getting closer and closer to the Tower of Babel epoch when the only person who can understand what he/she is saying is him/her-self!


But the word you needed is "older", not "elder". The words are related - but not identical:
https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=define+elder%2C+older&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b&gfe_rd=cr&ei=BJO5V9H-DqTM8get-5zIAQ#q=define+elder
despite the text in a couple of popular websites (Hell - there is a Yank UNIVERSITY that has a page "teaching" the punctuation of proper nouns - and it reckons that our breed is the German shepherd - which is actually a German man or boy who looks after sheep!)
Sadly, until children learn what adjectives and nouns are, they will get them muddled. I learned a LOT about English by having to learn French. (Despite Professor Henry Higgins pointing out that "the French don't care what they do actually, as long as they pronounce it properly"....)

 

And okay - who's been exploding atomic bombs? I wanted to post this at 1:30am but couldn't get a connection to the pdb, Google, ANYTHING!
Ah - at 2am I am again connected.
But BUGGER - the editor had lost all my formatting, so I've had to split the message and do the formatting again! Time, time, time....

As it is now 3am, my bath and the rest of the prepared message will have to waot until I've had some SLEEP!


by Bavarian Wagon on 24 August 2016 - 15:08

The only thing I got out of that is that you have less experience with dogs over the last 2 decades on trial field, in a show ring, or on a training field than I do in the last 12 months. You're clearly the last person anyone should take seriously about stacking dogs, the status of the breed, or pretty much anything to do with German Shepherds. Thanks for letting us know that all you are is an internet warrior who has extremely limited practical experience with the subject you chose to lecture others about.

Get off the computer and read some more William Shakespeare, it will do you much better than continuing the discussion about the English language or German Shepherds.

Les The Kiwi Pauling

by Les The Kiwi Pauling on 26 August 2016 - 05:08

Cantankerous bloody CKEditor. I had this ALMOST ready to Submit in the wee hours of Friday NZT - and then suddenly I was switched to a different page of the pdb - and when I got back to this page my message was a.w.o.l.....

 

 

[susie] 20.8.2016 - 22:08

"All German titles go behind/after the name, simply because they don´t belong to the name. AKC seems to think different in case of "champions"."
You are wrong three times.

☆1st: German titles are such as Kaiser, Kanzler, Siegerin and VA. and go IN FRONT of the name. Because I do not read German I've had to struggle with Google translate, and found:

https://translate.google.co.nz/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.wildsteiger-land.de/&prev=search
then went to Martin Göbl's page for Eiko vom Kirschental, in which the details clearly have the same order as I've tried to teach various people - namely
TITLE            NAME                   QUALIFICATIONS
  VA3    Xitta vom Kirschental    SchH3, FH  Kkl.1
But maybe you insist that your parents & grandparents called their emperor Wilhelm Kaiser, instead of the traditional Kaiser Wilhelm?
I can find no qualifications for Kaiser Wilhelm 2, despite that he spent four terms at the University of Bonn, studying law and politics. The various honours bestowed by Germany and its neighbours would probably count as qualifications, as the English honours such as KCMG and VC do go after the name of the recipient.


☆2nd: Both titles and qualifications DO "
belong to the name" - in the case of canine titles and qualifications they belong to the POOCH named, not its owner and/or handler.

☆3rd: The AKC doesn't just "
seem to think different in case of "champions"" - it DOES definitely disagree with you & [Bavarian], in that it agrees with EVERY nation and sporting body that has champions, that "Champion" is a title AND that it goes IN FRONT OF the name.

"
In Germany we call "title" "Ausbildungskennzeichen".
Ausbildung = training, apprenticeship
Kennzeichen = indication, marking
"
I DID mention that translators have difficulties! My translator
(who once had the cheek to tell me that English is based on German. Yes, it has a lot of German in it, but it is mainly based on Latin & Greek root-words) is sure to have spent her weekend (when I composed most of this) out taking training classes or judging things like Agility & Obedience & Tracking, so I used Google. It states
   
Ausbildungskennzeichen = training degrees
which agrees 100% with my 19 August 2016 - 13:08 advice where I listed, using green highlighter, a mixture of university degrees and canine qualifications
           and gives              
title = Titel
           and     qualification(s) = Qualifikation(en)
but I don't know which dialects of Deutsche Google uses. I know that my e-mail's software allows 2 different dialects of German in lexicons for its spell-checker.


"
English speaking countries translated to "titles""
No the countries didn't. But the more glory-seeking participants in DogSport did, they preferring the "aristocratic"-sounding "
titles" to the "you have to WORK for them"-sounding " qualifications "..

"
everybody understands the term, so I am fine with it."
You, like [
Bavarian], are apparently claiming to know "
everybody". It is quite possible that the people in your circles "translate" what you say and reach the term you MEANT - I can do that
(boy did I have to do a lot of "translating" when correcting my younger pupils essays & reports!). But that doesn't mean that YOU and THEY are actually using correct terminology.

And [
susie]: Despite your message to [Swarnendu], it is NEVER too late to learn - not while you have at least some sensory input. It wasn't easy for Helen Keller
(struck blind & deaf at 19 months old), but when the right teacher came along Helen learned HEAPS:   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Keller

 


[Swarnendu] 21.8.2016 - 09:08

"Susie: "English speaking countries translated to "titles", everybody understands the term, so I am fine with it."
I am also fine with it. English is not OUR first language, so it's fine to let the English speaking people to decide how they want their OWN language to evolve or deteriorate.
"
Far too forgetfully SIMPLISTIC, [
Swarnendu]. Listen to the 2½ minute  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAYUuspQ6BY   - especially the stanza beginning approximately 1:42 in! There are so MANY "dialects" posing as "English". The one I prefer was known as "BBC Received", which was comprehensible to the majority of people who thought they had learned English. Whereas a dialect heard in Glasgow, or Llanelli, or New Orleans, or Truro rarely was. Try Billy Connolly in the 2mins   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BkwnGq2yaA   or the 5½mins   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbBER36EOrc

Yanklish has a HUGE audience, thanks to the vast and CHEAP output of its movie studios and tv studies. But it is NOT English, even though Australia has been so susceptible to the Yank influence that it has a Labor Party instead of a Labour Party.
Fonetik spelling has long been touted by people such as George Bernard Shaw - and the idea was earlier satirised by Shakespeare who, in "Love's Labour's Lost", created a character called Holofernes who insisted that words should be PRONOUNCED the way they are spelled -  the opozit ov wot fonetik spelers wont.

But NOWHERE has fonetik spelling been completely adopted, and so apparently illogical words such as "doubt" and "stomach" and "through" and "tongue" remain, and in the Oxford English Dictionary the etymology of words can still be traced, although many etymologies were 'erased' in Noah Webster's version of English. Those interested in the history of the English language should start at

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English-language_spelling_reform
but that has nothing to do with the correct meanings and USAGE of the words "title" and "qualification".



[Bavarian Wagon] on 24.8.2016 - 15:08

"The only thing I got out of that is that you have less experience with dogs over the last 2 decades on trial field, in a show ring, or on a training field than I do in the last 12 months."
Obviously you DON'T know me.
Obviously you were too lazy to follow the links I supplied.
Not my problem.


"You're clearly the last person anyone should take seriously about stacking dogs, the status of the breed, or pretty much anything to do with German Shepherds."

So you consider that the Whanganui Obedience Dog Training Society was wrong to promote me from trainee to class instructor in, I think, 1969?
And you consider that Graham Brayne, founder & first president of our GSD Advisory Council, was wrong to give my L.Hetze the Reserve Bitch CC back in 1975? (Actually, I do too - he gave our imported Melony Kamee (handled by my wife) the CC, but I consider that Hetze was a better bitch at that stage. And it was Hetze's line that continued until my 70th birthday.)
And that in 1980 Dr Wolf Simon was wrong to give my L.Schaferin BS.Cl.2? And in 1981 Herr Bertold Wieneke made a bigger mistake by bumping her up to BS.Cl.1 for Life?
And that in 1980 Dr Wolf Simon was also wrong to give my L.Teufel BS.Cl.1 for Life?
And that in 1981 Herr Bertold Wieneke made another mistake by giving my L.Yva Braun BS.Cl.2?
And that Herr Walter Martin was wrong in 1983 to give my L.German Graffiti VP.1 Baby Dog, Best Dog Puppy, Best Puppy In Show? And Herr Rolf Fauser was wrong to give him VP.3 Minor Puppy about 4 months later? (And naturally the pro security trainer in Singapore who imported him and 2 of my slightly related pups unseen late in 1984 - and gave them the "thumbs up" when they arrived - was wrong... No WAY could I, an ignorant Kiwi, be competent to recognise the characteristics of good protection candidates....)
And that in 1984 Mz. E.Riley, the second president of our GSD Advisory Council, was doubly wrong to give my L.Bertold (son of L.Schaferin) his BS.Cl.1 for Life and L.Dina BS.Cl.2 for Life?
And that in 1985 she was wrong to give my L.Peter Reserve Dog to V3 A.Ch. Ex,1. Xiwar vom Oberbecker Land SchH3, a dog who had offspring in Germany, Australia, NZ, the USA?
And that in 1986 Graham Saltiel, the third president of our GSD Advisory Council, was doubly wrong to give both my L.Ciwa (who was dam of L.G.Graffiti and next became dam of B.Ace, NZ's youngest-ever Ob.Ch., a dog who was only 1 TDX short of also becoming a WT.Ch. when his owner fell fatally ill so exported him to Australia as a security dog) and L.Nadja BS.Cl.2 for Life - both being maximum size so ineligible for Cl.1.?
And that in 1990 Graeme Bennett, 4th (and best) of the GSD Advisory Council's presidents, was wrong to give L.Peter's sister, L.Pippa, BS.Cl.2 for Life?
And that in 1993 Mrs Viv McCambridge, 9th president of the GSD Advisory Council, was wrong to give my L.Cwanto BS.Cl.1 for Life and his sisters L.Cippa and L.Callme Ciwa BS.Cl.2 for Life? The only litter-mate not surveyed that day was L.Can-To - he was the professional security dog who, during training, saved a cop who was being kicked around by a group of thugs, and he & his owner were on duty that survey weekend.
And that in 1997 Graham Saltiel, the 3rd president of our GSD Advisory Council, was wrong to give my L.Keks Karl BS.Cl.2 for Life? (Yeah - I reckon that, after leading the class the whole time, Karl SHOULD have been Cl.1 - but I do have enemies, and sometimes I have to survey under them in order to get the Classification before doing a mating.)
So you consider that Dr Heinrich Meßler, current president of the SV & WUSV, was totally out of line in his August post-out about what judges are to do as of the 2016 BSZS regarding gaiting, handling, size? (I yesterday received a printout of SV Breed Warden Lothar Quoll's "Directive for the Measuring at Shows and Breed Surveys".)  And The KC (UK) is also totally out of line for dictating that handlers of GSDs are NOT to touch their GSDs and that judges are to penalise weak-hocked GSDs and handlers who encourage their dogs to race?
 
Wow you surely must be a truly WORLD-FAMOUS expert, for your "intuitive" long-distance opinion to out-weigh all those breeders-&-surveyors who are or were notables in Germany or NZ or the UK!
[
Bavarian Wagon] über alles - and that has NOTHING to do with taxis!

"Thanks for letting us know that all you are is an internet warrior who has extremely limited practical experience with the subject you chose to lecture others about."
The pleasure is - like your expert(?) opinion - yours, all yours.


"Get off the computer and read some more William Shakespeare, it will do you much better than continuing the discussion about the English language or German Shepherds."
Shakespeare? I have his collected works, courtesy the Readers Digest, but I doubt I'll ever read the bits I haven't already read. My main connection with Shakespeare is acting as an Egyptian General in an outdoor production of "Anthony & Cleopatra" in about 1962.
English? That was one of my majors at teacher's college, and the only time I have read the Concise Oxford Dictionary from  end to end (I used to have almost perfect recall back then - what is sometimes called a "photographic" or "eidetic memory"). My nickname during the 3 summers I worked in meat processing plants was "Professor".
GSDs? I have twice been on the committee of the GSD Advisory Council (it was more my wife's scene than mine - she WANTED to be a judge and a surveyor, so she became one) and I held a variety of roles for that body, including tattooist, Genetics Advisor, submission presenter to the Parliamentary Subcommision on Dog Control, magazine typesetter, BS Registrar, and Information Analyst & Co-ordinator. And my articles have been published in the GSD magazines of at least 3 countries.
 
How about your erudition and public acceptance as "knowledgeable" about English and GSDs?


Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 26 August 2016 - 07:08

Ah, Les, join the club ! Bav. frequently makes me feel that any experience of handling Shepherds counts for absolutely nowt unless it consists of her sort of  experience, i.e. spending the last couple of years teaching them to bite.  I think she would say the same to von Stephanitz himself, should he be alive still today !


by Bavarian Wagon on 26 August 2016 - 13:08

Nah...has nothing to do with show ring handling. It has to do with WHEN the handling was done. Les again listed the last accomplishment in the ring in 1997...almost 20 years ago. So now that makes someone an expert on where the GSD is today? Quit living in the past, the breed is where it is today and truthfully, show handlers, judges, and breeders are the ones that took it to this place.

Meat processing? Reading a dictionary? Acting in a play? What does any of that have to do with German Shepherds?

Seriously...I'm not sure why people in smaller countries take so much offense to the fact that their experience and over all affect on the GSD breed is extremely limited. The US has a hard time keeping up with what Germany and Europe is doing...huge distances and other cultural norms make breeding to many of the stud dogs difficult, and I can't imagine NZ has enough genetic diversity within the breed there to do anything but bottleneck and create a type far from what the major players in the game are doing.

By the way...if you think knowing more than some "pro" in Singapore is going to impress anyone on this forum...you've got a lot more to learn about the people you're discussing things with. We've all seen enough video out of East Asia to know exactly what their knowledge is about working dogs and dog training in general.

Also...I don't follow any of your links because I have no idea what is a link and what is you writing. On the internet, links are generally blue and underlined, unfortunately, for some reason you choose to write in blue (and all sort of other colors) making it extremely difficult to follow anything you're trying to actually say. Also doesn't help that you try to prove every other point/your knowledge about GSD by making a comparision to something that has nothing to do with dogs. Hard to take people like that seriously. I'm not sure why it's difficult for you to just write like the rest of the people on this forum and use the standard font and color, but if you were to do so, and then use standard internet protocol and have links blue and underlined (computers do this automatically for you...it's magic), more people would probably read the information you try to provide.






 


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