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ForumsGerman Shepherd Dog > DM Death Statistics in the GSD among the PDB members (159 replies)
DM Death Statistics in the GSD among the PDB members by beetree on 27 June 2012 - 13:59 |
| Just the facts, folks. It seems there are still some who have never seen this disease, and need proof that dogs do die from it, and it is not confined to a type. At the risk of repeating ourselves, (those of us with dead dogs due to DM), I am wanting to create a list. Seems that is what a few people keep wanting me to do, so here it is. You can follow my lead, or create your own catagories, I don't care. I just want some statistics for the statistic people to play with. Thanks all for your participation in my quest for your facts. I'll start with my dog: Silas. PTS 12/07 AGE: 15 months. Aggressive Form WLADQLAD diagnoses, (mine) all elimination tests were done. Including, MRI, spinal tap, tick diseases, all testing per the Dr. Clemmons protocol. (Walks Like A Duck, Quacks Like A Duck=WLADQLAD Necropsy: NO, but I wish I had. Especially, I would like a list of posters who have had dogs die recently, from DM this past year. And those that have tested genetically for DM, if they had necropsies done, as well, those results would be very useful. |
beetree by melba on 27 June 2012 - 14:18 |
| Not a GSD, but a heinz 47 mutt, 45 lbs of soft and spunky. Bonnie PTS 9/11 16 yrs old ( had been fighting the good fight for 8 yrs) Hers was a very slowly advancing DM. I want to post this to show that it doesn't only affect GSD, or purebreds for that matter. No official diagnosis.... WLADQLAD Melissa |
melba by starrchar on 27 June 2012 - 23:12 |
Who can do a necropsy to determine DM- any vet or is it specialized? |
starrchar by beetree on 28 June 2012 - 01:47 |
| Not sure, about the necropsy thing, but I remember a childhood GSD we had it done on by our local vet. The silence on this thread is disturbing. I will draw out your names/stories, eventually, from the other threads if I have to, but it would be better if you named yourselves. |
by hexe on 28 June 2012 - 05:36 |
| I've only had one GSD with DM, and in truth, it had nothing to do with why she was euthanized a week after her 14th birthday--it was disseminated hemangiosarcoma of the spleen and liver that led to crossing the Bridge. Additionally, she didn't develop clinical signs of DM until she was 13 yrs old; she was diagnosed based on clinical signs, age, breed, ruling out of other differentials, and Dr. Clemmon's review of a videotape of her in motion. (As I've mentioned before, she's one of the dogs seen in his video showing the various stages of the disease...she's an example of early to moderate stage of the disease.) This is just a theory on my part, but I suspect that there are varying forms--or varying triggers--of the disease within the breed; how else to explain the disorder causing severe clinical signs in dogs as young as 4 and 5 years of age, while other dogs don't even begin to show any symptoms until they are well into their advanced senior years? Perhaps there's a genetic susceptibility to environmental factors that cause the dog's body to attack the myelin sheath that surrounds the nerves, and in some dogs this isn't activated until they are elderly and their immune system in general is in decline, while other dogs are affected while still young due to an inherent or acquired flaw in their immune defenses? Re the question of necropsy, any vet can collect the samples necessary to diagnose DM, but the samples will then need to be examined by a pathologist who can identify the tell-tale defects in the myelin; the general practitioner should contact the lab they'll be sending the sample to and obtain detailed instructions as to what samples are needed, and how they should be packaged and shipped. Sadly, there will likely always be people who will deny that degenerative myelopathy exists in any form, just as there will always be those who ignore allergies, and pancreatic insufficiency, and hypothyroidism, and on, and on, and on... |
by darylehret on 28 June 2012 - 05:59 |
Knowing only whose dog had it isn't all that useful. I'd be interested in seeing pedigrees, and not just a total deathcount. |
darylehret by hexe on 28 June 2012 - 07:05 |
| Well, in my case, the bitch was from the older American show lines used by Wyn Strickland in the 70's and 80's, heavily linebred on Lance of Fran-Jo. Sired by Anton's Lukenbach, mother was Wynthea's Sky Lark. |
by dogshome9 on 28 June 2012 - 09:01 |
I have worked in the veterinary field since 1986 and I have owned and been associated with GSD's since 1977 and have never seen or heard of a dog with DM. |
dogshome9 by beetree on 28 June 2012 - 11:56 |
| Interesting dogshome9, I believe you are not in the USA? Daryl, if any one wants to share the pedigree of their dog that died of DM, I agree, it could be very useful. |
by kitkat3478 on 28 June 2012 - 12:36 |
| I am in full support of education where DM is concerned. It is a horrible ailment for everyone involved with it, very heart breaking for both the dog and owner. I have to say I have been very lucky with the health and genetics of all my Shepherds. VERY Lucky . I also would be interested in distinguishing which lines carry for it, but in doing so, we also have to be careful not to cause a false Hysteria in certain lines .I also have dogs that have Lance in there, but in close to 20 years, I have not encountered this ailment, to which I say THANK GOD . There must be ways, and Bee is a good indicator here, to get accurate and INFORMED information out there for all to use to hopefully eliminate this horrible disease, (or, at the very least, to substantialy reduce it). |
kitkat3478 by Jenni78 on 28 June 2012 - 12:56 |
| Why not post pedigrees and the method in which the dog was diagnosed? Wouldn't that be the most useful way to create an accurate view withOUT creating hysteria? For something this serious, I want facts- taking someone's word for it that their dog had this but they won't tell me how their dog was bred and has no official diagnosis via the ONLY sure-fire test available, doesn't cut it. Let's "out" the TRUE pedigrees; post DM info on the pedigree (now that they're locked and any numbskull can't go in there and say whatever they want). I have a major problem with things like CE, spondylosis, etc. being diagnosed as DM and muddying the water. To be proactive from a health standpoint, you really need to have facts, not bandwagon hysteria. You could miss the real problem in the lines and be creating other problems inadvertantly. Hexe, that's the most useful post so far on this subject- honest, factual, names names and just plain makes sense as to some of the "whys". |
Jenni78 by kitkat3478 on 28 June 2012 - 13:23 |
| Jenni- you are 100 % right, the full pedigree is needed, NOT just a name , BUT when putting up a pedigree associated with DM, I myself. Feel ONLY those dogs CONFIRMED by necropsy should be added to it, NOT the I have a dog out of So and So, and I THINK he died of DM, or my vet THINKS it was DM .A voluntary submission of complete facts would be fantastic . The. DNA databases of dogs tested would be Wonderful to be made EASILY available, and understandable. Sometimes it is like a treasure hunt to find info, for some of us that don't know where and what exactly WE are looking for. (Yes, I get very lost on the computer sometimes). |
by kitkat3478 on 28 June 2012 - 13:31 |
| Equally as important is a database with complete pedigrees of those tested that come up no risk, or carrier, This is the only way we can have accurate info,also included would need to be info on when testing is wrong,. Actually, there is a lot of info that needs to be gathered to get accurate USEFUL "FACTS". Kudos to Bee for trying to initiate a fact finding discussion. |
by laura271 on 28 June 2012 - 13:31 |
| I think you would need an organization (like the OFA) to manage an extractable database in order to make this information truly useful from a statistical standpoint. Drawing causality links between DM and pedigree information would also be tricky (such as distinguishing collinear independent variables). Laura (who thinks about statistical tests on a regular basis) |
laura271 by Blitzen on 28 June 2012 - 14:01 |
| I believe Marj Zimmerman has collected pedigrees and causes of death on a website.There would be some info on DM there. Maybe I misunderstand BeeTree's intent, but I think she is trying to establish how many GSD's diagnosed clinically with DM actually had DM. How they were diagnosed and were they posted after death to confirm the DM diagnosis. I read on the net that about 20% of GSD's diagnosed with DM actually had it when autopsied. I've tried to find that statement quite a few times, can't and I can't find any of Clemmon's articles anymore. Seems they have all been deleted. So I can't back this up with facts. Breeders who DNA test their dogs have pretty good ideas of which dogs in their pedigrees were at risk and carriers. Most I know hesitate to share what they have learned simply because some will use it in a negative manner. There are many well known dogs from ALL lines involved. Best suggestion is just test your own dogs regardless of whether or not you are aware of any ar risks or carriers. You will need to do that anyway if you want to use that test to make beeding decisions. Don't assume any dog is normal because you know of no effected relatives especially in lines where few are testing yet. |
Blitzen by darylehret on 28 June 2012 - 17:58 |
Please DO back that statement up with facts. |
by starrchar on 28 June 2012 - 19:08 |
| Marjorie's DM support group board has a forum titled "List your DM pedigrees here". THere are a little over 100 pedigrees listed there. I think you have to join her website to have access to the information. HEre is the link to the board: http://www.mzjf.info/Forums/index.php |
by cphudson on 28 June 2012 - 21:32 |
| You can go through OFA's list also & look up the names for pedigrees, if they are listed; http://www.offa.org/results.html?num=®istrar=&namecontains=N&part=&namecontains=N&breed%5B%5D=GS&breedlist=ALL&variety%5B%5D=&sex=&birthday_start_month=&birthday_start_year=&birthday_end_month=&birthday_end_year=&birthday=®code%5B%5D=DM&rating%5B%5D=DM%3A300&rptdte_start_month=&rptdte_start_year=&rptdte_end_month=&rptdte_end_year=&rptdte=&submit=Begin+Search I went through the whole list one day of all carriers & at risk. There are a lot of dogs with no pedigree on file, lots of AKC SL dogs, German SL dogs & I was surprise to see working line dogs also. As for the working lines I did noticed some few common names show up; Eqidius lines & Xero z PS were the ones I saw the most often. |
cphudson by cphudson on 28 June 2012 - 21:34 |
| You can go through OFA's list also & look up the names for pedigrees, if they are listed; http://www.offa.org/results.html?num=®istrar=&namecontains=N&part=&namecontains=N&breed%5B%5D=GS&breedlist=ALL&variety%5B%5D=&sex=&birthday_start_month=&birthday_start_year=&birthday_end_month=&birthday_end_year=&birthday=®code%5B%5D=DM&rating%5B%5D=DM%3A300&rptdte_start_month=&rptdte_start_year=&rptdte_end_month=&rptdte_end_year=&rptdte=&submit=Begin+Search I went through the whole list one day of all carriers & at risk. There are a lot of dogs with no pedigree on file, lots of AKC SL dogs, German SL dogs & I was surprise to see working line dogs also. As for the working lines I did noticed some few common names show up; Eqidius lines & Xero z PS were the ones I saw the most often. |
by cphudson on 28 June 2012 - 21:49 |
This is some of the pedigree's off the OFA site: |
Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!