RIP REAL workingdogs- bloodlines with charactar ? - Page 6

Gustav, So few words, so well explained.

GG

Well said, Gustav.  In a generation where becoming an expert on subject matter is just a few keystrokes away, your nearly five decades of experience of not only training, but also working with the breed lend great credibility to your comment. 

right on the money Gustav, some other "pleasures " the world got thrown in for free with the desire to breed extreme high drive dogs, dogs that will not settle down, nervebags, tailchasers, sidesuckers and what more

 

Gustav
can you explain meaning behind "morphing the breed away from its versatile intent"?
i feel puzzled when hear breeders saying that their breeding intent to produce versatile dogs. i don't believe in possibility to achieve "jack of all trades" in one sole dog neither one particular litter of offspring. there should be specialized approach with accent on specific of future useful utilization of dogs, be it military/LE or more peaceful civilian use.

Valk, shit dont fall upwarts, so if you breed for one goal, be it show, pet or prey only, dont expect to produce any higher or other than that, if you breed for LE for example, there will be dogs in litter, suitable for sport and pet as well

we can see what single goal breeding leads to, as we have showlines, sportlines and workinglines now

duke, i do understand that. but question was about versatility of dog.
i acknowledge my lack of wider and deeper knowledge and do try to abstain from discussion to which i can't contribute from my own experience, such like about show lines, malinois, pedigrees, better dog's food or solving dog's health issues. but i do have years of experience of work with dogs, who was bred not for hypothetical but a real everyday work. and can assure you, those dogs was quite far from being versatile.
foremost breeding goal were the dogs for patrol role. majority of rejected dogs did excel as watchdogs. very few perhaps could be classified into pet category to some degree and i really can't recall anything, who could be good candidate let's say SAR, guide or therapy dogs.
thus there need to be specialization.
seems show and sport breeding are such specialization with own goals.
i guess controversy mostly arise from question about utilization of sport dogs in real life work, like attack/protection/apprehension dogs and unwillingness of proponents of sport dogs to acknowledge that it is not true and those dogs do not meet the requirements.

Valk, in a way, I guess, we can also say that eastern europe border dog breeding program, was also breeding in one direction same as sportdogs and showline dogs

the first generations in czech republic where they started to breed females from old czech lines to west sport males, brought some of the best dogs suitable for LE IMO, but after that the next generations bred to sportdogs again and again, made many czech breedings produce nothing different than the west german dogs on the pedigree would make you expect.

now there are also different lines in old border breedings and from my breedings of those lines I produced seeing eye dogs, SAR dogs, detectiondogs, IPO dogs, KNPV dogs and LE dogs so I would say these lines are pretty versatile, and would say most are suitable and some are also pet dogs

but I guess when yuo breed for SAR or show or IPO alone, you shouldnot expect to produce best candidates for LE or alot of other directions, and secondly, the way a lot of people breed will not guarantee you much of anything, looking at pedigrees like Quido vepeden, bred to daughter of extreme orex, bred to a Hank weinbergblick daughter, and so on

furthermore I see IPO trainers today rejecting dogs for training because of having to much civil, having no or not enough fooddrive, being to independent, or not fitting the trainingsystem they believe in 

I consider myself lucky to have a dog from West German, Czech and Slovak working lines that has good prey, defense and fight.  And again, it not so black and white that a socalled sport dog can't do real work.  Some can and some can't.  And I agree Gustav that lower prey dogs or low food drive dogs are harder to train, but I train for fun so I want to train a dog that is highly motivated to learn and that you can get precision with.  But I don't consider him strictly a sport dog.  He has recently started showing some serious aggression if a stranger gets near his crate in the vehicle.  He is not barking to try to scare the person away because he is also scatching/digging at the floor of his crate trying to get out to get to the person. Yet, I can take him to train and if the trainer I work with wants to take his leash and show me something that I can improve on, I don't have to be concerned that he is going to try to bite him.  I can take him in stores with me and am comfortable with him around children while I am there to supervise. He has some discernment and knows what his territory is and will defend it, and with continuing maturity, I believe he will fight in a real situation.  Territorial aggression can have some advantages as long as that territory expands to any area around the dog with maturity and training and the aggression is backed up with more than just barking.

Good post, Duke.

Nothing wrong with your dog or what you wrote, Apple....it’s the only and the best dogs are that way, which is the narrative often read especially from sport people, that some of us object to.