What causes this working difference? - Page 4

Pedigree Database


by Jessejones on 15 January 2019 - 18:01

Valk says:
Jessie, even trained behavior need to have innate basic predisposition... to become trained

 Yes, I wrote that in my comment too.

Valk says:
i saw the dog, who become so much excited by seeing that ball, that start to lose selfcontrol and sort of mentally falling into puppyhood, clearly demonstrating this by behavior and cheeping vocal expression. mind you, it's 2 y.o. dog (at 1/4 of his active lifespan).
yes, for me that negative enoug factor, to dismiss that dog.

The dog became vocal as the handler was holding him back, while the woman was “hiding” the ball. I say...So what? I don’t see this as proof that the dog is reverting to puppyhood.

If you don’t want the dog to get so excited and vocal because he knows he will be released to search, then all you need to do is stop restraining him.

Just teach him to sit calmly, without restraint, until you give him the OK to search for the ball. No biggie to do with this dog. He is very responsive to a handler.

Perhaps the owners may have wanted to portray the dog as “eager” in the vid, with vocals and a “let me get at it” attitude and drive....if this is a dog for sale.

Duke says:
this is one of the females I bred, old czech lines, didnot pick up a bal or rag till about 11 months of age

That is why we always say, “all dogs are different”.

And I add, no dog is raised in a vacuum.

Meaning that whatever was taught the dog, either through training, or lack of training and just it’s surroundings... also comes in to play.

If the dog is a kennel dog, with not much human interaction, a ball will mean nothing to it. Until the idea of having fun with it is woken up by a human playing with it. this is why is is always hard to say if the dog is maturing fast or not. And, on what drive? Or what character trait? Again...everything is on a sliding scale, as I always say. Look at the dog, and what is in front of you.... not generalizations.

Since no dog is born perfect...This is what makes good training or a good trainer...to work the dog as an individual, despite his “shortcomings”, “high strung nerves”, “lack of - fill in the blank” or “specific preferences” ....to over come as many short comings as possible...and still have a great dog.

Valk says:
over century their purpose was expanded somewhat but never into role of hunt-dogs. training GSDs to perform protection through the prey drive (hunt instinct), was perhaps most stupid (and contradictory to protection purpose) move.

Tell that to all the successful man-tracking LE GSD’s and SAR  GSD’s and mine detection dogs.

Not all dogs are needed for pure protection and aggression at close quarters. We need dogs for much, much more than just that.

by apple on 15 January 2019 - 18:01


Couldn't see the video Duke.  Here is a link to the paternal granddam of my male.  Her prey drive was zero until about eight months of age and then fully kicked in.  She is also a balanced dog and produces that balance.

by ValK on 15 January 2019 - 20:01

with due all respect apple, how many of these, as you call them "old style DDR" dogs, have you experienced in your life, to feel that you can lecture me on their pros and cons?
b.t.w. i don't care about handler. i'm looking at dog. that dog will react in same way even in absence of handler.


duke, dog's maturity is not about dog's work in any kind of drive. it's rather about dog's state of mind, perception of surrounding and accordingly to it response, at certain point of dog's age.


Jessie, i'm glad for LE officers, who was able to obtain decent dogs.
but you forgot to add those dogs, who even after extensive training turned out to be unsuitable and failed in the line of duty.
if i recall correctly, sometime ago someone in here mentioned -  7% of RCMP specialized breeding, turns out to be suitable for patrol dog purpose.
as for "aggression at close quarters", all my dogs didn't live in isolated enclosure but i never had accidental bite of anyone, be it member of my family, relatives, friends or even strangers. pretty much same can be said about other members of club, whose dogs did come from same source as mine.

Western Rider (admin)

by Western Rider on 15 January 2019 - 20:01

I think I fixed all the videos to play, if I missed any let me know


by emoryg on 16 January 2019 - 00:01

Active social aggression is often misunderstood.  Due to its scarcity, many people have never been exposed to these types of dogs.  It is a very desirable trait in police dogs whose duties include protecting their handler and fellow officers, seeking out criminals who are attempting to avoid detection, and when needed, used as an instrument of force to effect an arrest.  These types of dogs tend to be absolute in self confidence, to the point of being void of any flight instincts, thus defensive actions are rarely if ever displayed.  With proper understanding on their training needs, the high level and desire to fight an adversary can be exploited and utilized to mold a very effective police dog.  They do come with some baggage that has to be carried throughout their career, but from my experience working with them, it was well worth it.  From what I have gathered, there appears to be an uptick in interest on bringing this trait back. 


by Jessejones on 16 January 2019 - 02:01

Valk says:
Jessie, i'm glad for LE officers, who was able to obtain decent dogs. but you forgot to add those dogs, who even after extensive training turned out to be unsuitable and failed in the line of duty.
if i recall correctly, sometime ago someone in here mentioned -  7% of RCMP specialized breeding, turns out to be suitable for patrol dog purpose.

So  that would mean that 7 out of 100 dogs bred for the job might make it. Sounds about right to me...I would guess. Others here certainly know more about that than I do. 

Considering a similar human statistic...how many US men of appropriate age going into the military are smart enough, disciplined enough, and physically fit enough...and MENTALLY suited ....to pass the test and training to make it into Special Forces? I would wager a guess that it is probably a similar percentage number. About 5% of the military is SF, it seems, they are always looking for good recruits too... they aren’t a dime a dozen either.

(I’ll just put this into the fwiw category)




by duke1965 on 16 January 2019 - 06:01

JJ many gouvernment run breedingprograms have low result for the simple fact they are managed by trainers, not by breeders, breeding is job that is not mastered by most, putting two dogs together doesnot make one a breeder


Emoryg, the growing interest for these traits is due to many fails on the street from dogs that worked on the suit just fine Wink Smile


by apple on 16 January 2019 - 12:01

I have no experience with any old style DDR dogs. I also never knew Charles Manson, but know a lot about him. One reason is that they are not around any more, with very few exceptions. The DDR ended decades ago and many of the dogs were destroyed, which brings up a whole other issue, being, if they were so great, why destroy them? If these dogs were is large supply, I don't think there would be a large demand for them. Also, I am not lecturing you, just sharing my opinions. I have found that on the forums, defensive people often prefer defensive dogs. Maybe you could share the names and pedigrees of some of the dogs you liked. Your comment about maturity not being about a dog's work in any drive is dead wrong IMO. Maturity and defense drive training go hand in hand. The dog has to have enough maturity to be able to handle the stress of defensive training because defense behavior is always triggered by concern or worry.
I totally agree with you about social aggression. These are dogs that will bite anyone (except children) outside of their pack because they are outside of the dog's pack. It is about the social hierarchy and instinctual competition for resources. It has nothing to do with defensive aggression as you stated, eliminating the worry and risk of flight. Unfortunately, the trait is almost lost due to the litigious society we live in and PC about aggression in working dogs. I think the trait was more common in the Eastern Bloc countries/dogs where the state owned everything and didn't have to worry about law suites. Also, these type of dogs require a high degree of responsibility.
Regarding government run breeding program, I believe the Slovak Police have had some good success.

by apple on 16 January 2019 - 12:01

One breeder I personally know breeds unregistered KNPV Mals and DS's with a good deal of them meeting the criteria and becoming special forces dogs. His philosophy is that he doesn't breed for dominance or aggression, but rather very highly driven dogs that are very social and have very good nerves. I see them as having what Michael Ellis refers to as competitive aggression, which is just his term for fight drive. The more pressure you put on this type of dog, the more the dog fights back, but the motivation isn't concern or worry as in defensive aggression. The motivation is to win. It almost like a form of gameness, where the dog never gives up.

by duke1965 on 16 January 2019 - 13:01

apple, a dog has to have agression to be able to display agression, to say high drive is leading to competitive agression or whatever one calls it is a joke, can be high posession and frustration, but thats another thing,because out of frustration, a dog will also bite handlers leg or arm, which will not be the case when dog has civil agression


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