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by Centurian on 25 May 2019 - 01:05

My intetnion is not to debate here..

Gustav .. absolutely ...No disagreement with your words or thoughts .

But I add : when I evaluated police K9s , I evaluated not only their capability but also their Temperament - Both Comprehensively .

To share my personal bias and preference - and not that I have intention to judge anyone else :

I do not want a dog just capable of doing the task . I look at the behavioral aspects and genetic attributes that govern not just what I want the dog to do as a task , but also , how that dog performs a task. That is , as you have stated , a personal preference . But I will state , emaphatically and as also factually : Many , many times .. I have not only seen but also worked with policemen whose K9s had by fundamental standards , that were unsound in temperament. That again is subjective because another person having worked LE canines may not have had this experience - at all . And I know as being factual that the people that produce canines for LE in Europe push them out so dam fast for the money that they have through the years become so lax in good quality breeding practices . Again , this is factual and anyone that is honest and connected [ in the loop sort of speak ] knows this to be true . Hence my personal preference for evaluating. Not my placd to tell anyone to do tis or that , or not to do this or that , , but my preference : I don't just see what a dog can do ... So , to each their own .

Valk -- Aggression in simplicity is the willingness overtly or covertly [ passive or active ] to do harm to another . However that is use of the word is generalized. However , in a specific as opposed to the general , Aggression has specific forms / kinds / categories . Aggression can be provoked , triggered as you correctly state , or aggression can be unprovoked too . So I made a point : in essence that in specific types of aggression the physiological state of the dog is different in accordance with that 'different type' of agggression. SO Aggression is complex and not so simple. Why I write this Valk is not to debate you . I write this for all the readers ... gain I have seen helpers/decoys that do not understand this and as a result reallu screw up the dogs that they are supposed to teach ! People that do not understand this IMOp have no business working the dogs. This is essential in the role to do adequate helper/decoy work.

by duke1965 on 25 May 2019 - 04:05

have to disagree that people become lax in breeding quality, there are many reasons coming first, sport,modern society, todays doghandlers to name some

by Gustav on 25 May 2019 - 10:05

I would find it hard to assess capability without including temperament....but LE is no different than any other vocation in that there will always be varying degrees of competence/ incompetence in the handlers, dogs, and results. Just as the standards and the abilities of trainers vary so very much from state to state and often from level of LE application ( County, local, state, military, federal). I’ve been blessed to have trained with every single one of these K9 levels. Still, over time I think you get a feel for seeing a good dog or really nice dog, and seeing a dog that has imperfections that won’t allow it to make minimum standards.
We both agree this is a good dog, I’ll leave it at that.😊

by Centurian on 25 May 2019 - 12:05

Yes Gustav
For the record .. I did not say this was a not fine dog , I wrote that Duke should be proud of this dog. For the record my commentary was to stimulate people , especially novices to THINK . My reasoning : Many people , for one reason or another , whether they are novices or so called experienced people do not know how to completely evaluate a GS and nor do they not understand the importance of Temperament or Mentality in the GS . The good and the bad.

So to further one's thinking ..... WHY ? ... That is whtat I ask of myself when I see a dirty bite . From whence does that originate ? I made a reference in a post : that behavior has a genetic and a learned/envirommental component to it - Always . I also made a reference to a dog dirty biting ibeing important . The reader decides .

But I will share some thoughts .. if you allow me to . 35 years ago , I learned all the theory and application of Schutzhund as well as how to teach the canine . We were intensely tested on our competence to teach dogs . Having stated that : we learned the so called " Drive Promotion Theory " bit. So the practice back then was to get the dog so wound up , so fired up to perform. And ... that what was taught , 'drive promotion ' to in the dog. And that is exactly the dog that you got . A fired up dog.. code for a over the top driven , hectic , frantic , out of control dog that could not think straight because the dog literally drooled for the bite. I often frowned on this . Because .... if the dog has , and they did at that time , the genetic predispostion to do the task , why in the world did we need to 'promote ' the drive? . The innate ability was there in the dog . Why on earth were we promoting the so called 'drive' ?

The fact of the matter is that with many canines people create problems - not all matters can be blamed on the genetics , yes ?. Do understand th kind , quality , quantity of aggression the canine has as well as the other components of temperament. The other components are also equally as important too ! ..That is what has to be understood . Either they tried to make the dog what it was not or they did not recognize what the dog was. As a result what we see are dogs that have out problems , control problems , poor working synergy with handlers as well as handlers that can't handle or teach these dogs .. Not to mention the inability to clean [ correct this if possible] ] these problems up . Of course iof you do underrsatand where the beahvior originates you have a chance in hell to rectify anything. Remember , dogs do not unlearn behavior once learned . Also they revert back to their foundation when stressed. Still to this day .. I see people that do not understand the dog and they create these problems for the same reasons.I also see people that have dogs with the problem based i n genetics and they still do not understand the dog , what to do or not to do . Then they try to tell me how long and how experienced they are. As I wrote , my standrards .. I would be embarraseed if my dog dirty bit like that .. but as I also wrote that is subjective personal bias. And ipso facto , the dog for whatever pirpose it is for LE , Sport , the dog will continue to dirty bite .. or at least untill this is addressed. Again - for whatever it is worth - if the person that works with this dog does not understand the aggression and from where this comes , this will not be rectified.
Gustav ... no rflection on you but sincerely sharing my experience with you . This is MY personal bias. : I remember going though the pat down exercises with the officers. I know exactly how to pla e the dog , what to do , etc etc .. the whole nine yards. As I would terach this to the rookie K9 . Believe me , in the pat down situation believe me I would not desire a canine that had a dirty bite problem . For the non LE person - these dogs we trained drroled , they lived to take a bite , sort to speak , They were so cunning that in practice they would manuever you to try to get you to move from a ' freeze postion' just so that they could bite you . Hands up , sort to speak , you just move in a pat down tto the officer ,that dog would be on you !!! Sport .. again, have a dog woith dirty bite , then count on the penalty .. just saying.... { BTW if your dog dirty bites and you correct that dog.. 99% of the time ot was not a corrtection for what you did was after the fact , tolate , and the dog does not make the association - you corrected nothing ].

So , the dog in the video ?? How does one see that dog ? That is what the thread is about , yes ? And I say there is more to the dog than just that performance. Looking at that dog.. I want the novice and so called people that think they are experienced to think .. and ask themselves : what am I seeing and how much and to what to , do I attribute this aggressive behavior to ? If you think dirty biting is genetic in orign - you have a big problem . If you think with this dog the dirty bite and lack of control is from the teachinh/training , you have to understand how to clean that up so that you will not get into trouble . Or- if you do sport you will continually get penalized . If the dog it once and got something out of it , then surely this will happen again and agian and this becomes learned behavior. If you do not understand what wavelength I am on - then you have no chance with any dog.

So .... In my way of thinking, in my mind ther are many many many thoughts , when I see dogs , about the dog .. there is a lot lot more to this dog , video and example that meets my eyes. And I want people if they choose to , to think a lot more about what they see. Try to better your dog and your self... Every do for 35+ years ... teaches me something...

by Juno on 25 May 2019 - 13:05

This is a great thread with very good commentary from some of the most knowledgeable GSD folks on this site. All I have to add is the handler has a tremendous influence on the dog too. Speaking from personal experience I can honestly state that I have a dog way better than me as a handler and in the hands of someone with experience handling and reading a dog like mine would really make him shine. That is a regret I have but on the other hand I would never let someone else handle him let alone have him - too selfish and tied to him.

by ValK on 25 May 2019 - 14:05

or aggression can be unprovoked too

aggression isn't permanent condition of dog's life.
it seen unprovoked from our point but not for dog. who can with 100% certainty say - he or she know what goes in dog's mind?

many reasons coming first, sport,modern society, todays doghandlers to name some

there are generation of breeders, who don't know that the german shepherd dog can be different, than ones, they used to see around in mainstream breeding. 
substitution of diverse breed onto diverse dog has become quite a staple in breeder's bragging terminology.

by Centurian on 25 May 2019 - 16:05

Yes Valk Aggression.... can be unprovoked. That is called bullying . And this bullying behavior does occur in GS too ! For example , I have a pack of 9 GSs that live freely in my house . One female is a controller , passively aggressive to the other dogs , simply because she has to let all the other GS know that she is # 1 with me . Unprovoked passive aggression is often her MO to establish and maintain rank order.

And we can quite often know exactly what a dog is thinking. They also know often what our thoughts and read us like a book too . Valk , eveybody talks about body language when it comes to the dog , yes .. what people do not know nor do they understand exactly what body language is about and it's significance. Additionally they do not learn how to understand people let alone canines. I liken this to : someone that understands people in LE and their ability to know/understand whether you are lying when speaking. Dogs also tell us much too , what they are thinking , if you understand the dog and now what to look for. Beleive it or not we can know the minds of animals ...

One aspect Valk that I am on the same page as you ... yes !!! The change of the GS from years ago. My first GS was from Germany and I remember that dogs genetics and capabilities quite well . Yes current day GS has subst of genetics .. almost within the breed is another breed in and of itself ... due what you state about diversification . Valk I know you grew up with differet n times and different bent of GS than modern times. I accepted back in the late 60's and 70's the same behavior that I accept today. I would have put that GS aside any border patrol or police dog and he was a tough mother of a canine. He would have killed someone to defend me. Yet we expected the right behavior, the proper manners and self control from that dog. A very very different capability and mindset than many of the GS of today for sure. So .. I understand the many posts that you write .. I understand your points of view- many of which I fully agree with . However , when I tell anything to my dog back then as a very very young boy , as well as today, e.g that my dog should out , leave something alone I dam well meant it and expected the dog to listen , to control itself, and nothing short of that- so did my father.

Juno .. how are you :-) and how is your dog- I hope well . Juno I say : a dog is what it is by it's make up ...and this you know too . We cannot change what we are [ aside from genetic engineering that is ] nor can a dog. ... But I always keep in mind , my dog is an exact reflection of myself . His potential is either brought to fruition or it is repressed by my interaction. If I want my dogs pumped up and fired up , then I must be quite enthusiatic. If I want to calm my dog down , then I must be totallly calm , in every way . If I want a dog to obey rules then I have to be a rule enforcer. If I am undiscipined or out of control and a have a anything goes attitude, then my dog will be likewise. . Dog training and teaching is about MY ATTITUDE that I put forth such that my dog has the ' right ' attitude. In the thread's video , you see a representation of IMOp ' the wrong attitude ' [ the dog thinking it can dirty bite ] . The handler / teacher of this dog has a role to some degree or another in that - the dopg is a reflection IMOp. And that is what I was hoping Gustav would see with me .... And I hope other people will too .

by ValK on 25 May 2019 - 19:05

centurian, your example is rather shows that that girl just maintain her hierarchy rank in pack.
concern about own rank position is provoking her to show aggression/readiness to switch into forceful action

i have other example. border breeding never meant dogs for average home setting.
i already mentioned, their dogs were with very strongly pronounced aggression. majority of dogs, who failed test,
was too reactive/sharp in their temperament to make into patrol dogs. few dogs i did know, after being rehomed,
eventually been shoot due to sporadic unmanagability. those youngster wasn't significantly differ from their siblings
but in other days from time to time for seemingly no reason from human's point of view, they go into "berserk" mode.
such mad behavior could happen against well familiar to them person, at any moment... even when handler simply
come to take them out of enclosure or bring them food, etc.
it's obvious that something triggered such reaction at that precise moment but now try to figure out what the hell is happening.

there always something, which provoke/pushes dog to act in certain way, even if we don't see or don't understand reason.

by Centurian on 25 May 2019 - 19:05

Ok Valk ,
I do not object to what you are saying... I understand tyour meaning and that is what is important. We have differences of expression . I always enjoy reading your ideas no mattter. I don't have the outlook that in convertsdations I have to be right , nor wrong.

However , if you allow me to explain more of my thinking . I often teach people : " dogs do things with purposenes " dogs are like people in that they have thoughts , they have feelings/emotions and they think as well as respond because they innate automatic genetic predispositions. So valk that is where i make a slight differentiation . I make clear my controlling dog's actions. Many times my other dogs are miding their own business . But if this controlling female sees another dog standing still , 10 feet away from me several things: [ And this is what I alluded to about reading dogs] . She sees in her mind , the intention in the mind of that other dog before that dog even starts to approach me. So, she premeptively moves toward me , thinking and knowing that if that dog comes to me she will passively cut that dog off . She will push even my strongest male out of the way to gain attention for me first . That is to say: she was not triggered , she had purpose even before anything ever started , even before the other dog began to move.That female controller initiated the action . She did not respond to an action from another dog . She took the intiative just by looking at the other dog. So she was not triggered. She was thinking and calculating. She thought , then acted on those thoughts premetively. In other words, before any other dog did anything . Like punching someone in the face before they even thought about or even punched you in the face. To restate: having a purpose and being triggered [ as in a response to a stimulus ] for me are different. The context and situation is different. No one promted or stimulated the dog , she thought and acted ahead of any other dog [ stimulus]. So anyone can look at this differently . There is no right or wrong , but I do like healthy , mannered discussions. Unless one wants to argue : oh the other dog's eyes prompted het and she reaxted on that - but to me that is cutting hairs and insults dog's abilty to think and problem solve. There is to e still a subtle difference between a trigger that bellicits a spcific immediate response and a dog cxontemplating something and acting premetively , that is not IMOp provocation. The other dog did not provoke her. She thought on her own and acted freely and willingly on her own accord.

This brings me back to the point I previous made. Dogs can read each other just about instantaneously but as humans , why do we struggle to read dogs so much ...The answer lies in that we have to learn to talk dog talk . and that is what I do with dogs.. A whole other subject for another thread / discussion.

I end this comment by saying once more : a bite to me is not simply a bite . There is more than what meets the eye ....

by Juno on 26 May 2019 - 10:05

Centurion,

My dog is doing fine, at 3 years old he has turned into a physical best at a very muscular and fast 86 lbs and more serious. He is still a very safe dog and I can go out in public places with him however; he is clearly a dog who has a hair trigger when provoked. His lack of excelling is clearly a reflection of me as I do not have the discipline nor focus to demand perfection from him so he being a strong minded dog takes advantage. He will obey me but not in the degree of precision required. I am fine with that, but I know he can do way better.

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