I think treat training is cruel. - Page 38

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by duke1965 on 07 December 2018 - 15:12

BE the first part of your post is exactly spot on

by joanro on 07 December 2018 - 15:12

Gustav, absolutely agree with you.
I have always been able to train what ever animal is in front of me for what I need....from cross bred Huskies, to gsd. It takes understanding the animal and adjusting the training to that particular animal.
As Duke said, seminar guys and even podium guys, select out of dozens and dozens of dogs to get The One that will train up using their method of training.

As an example of selecting the " trainable" animal, Glen Randle would go through as many as fifty horses to get the one that would take his training.

A friend of mine who knew me well, commented thirty years ago, the I could train what ever random horse or dog I had to do whatever I needed....without selecting based on propensity to do the performance I needed for the job I was hired for.
It takes talent and a deep understanding of animals to be successful in training...what ever the desired end result of the training may be.

by apple on 07 December 2018 - 16:12

Prager,
A dog understanding that you want them to go down is not the same as a dog learning how to offer a behavior that he has learned for a reward. Stress interferes with initial learning. If you go by your default theory then a dog who learns via an association with stress, he will require stress to keep that behavior reliable. Independent learning via positive reinforcement leads to a better adjusted dog in the long run, if the dog has the drives that can be used for that approach.

by joanro on 07 December 2018 - 16:12

Apple, a dog does not need specific drives to be motivated to learn a behavior using marker training. You can teach a dog devoid of food or prey or any other drive by something he wants...like going outside. You can teach him to sit using his desire to go outside the door as a reward.

Drives such as prey just make it easier for the trainer that is incapable of innovation.

Duke, absolutely a boot in the butt is a marker to train unwanted behavior.
The same dog I described teaching the down using bite motivation/ reward thought the waste length hair of a club member looked like something he should " kill. " The second time he lunged at her back for her hair as we heeled passed her in the group, I gave him a swift possitive reinforcement with the " No" command to his rearend. He got the message.
Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 07 December 2018 - 16:12

Also, most handlers have a certain type of dog they like. Especially high level handlers look for a very specific dog that goes hand in hand with their training methods. Furthermore, high level competition dogs require a certain amount of hardness to truly be capable of performing well at a high level and a lot of handlers, ESPECIALLY in the US are not exactly soft handlers.

by apple on 07 December 2018 - 16:12

Balabanov comes to mind.

by apple on 07 December 2018 - 16:12

Joanro,
I agree. That is why I brought up the Premack principle earlier. Operant learning is used a lot with people, especially children, and no one is thinking in terms of the child possessing certain drives. What is important is that the stimulus presented following a behavior is actually a reinforcer in that it increases the frequency of a behavior. And yes, food and prey drive make it easier for the dog and the trainer. I say train smart not hard.

by duke1965 on 07 December 2018 - 16:12

hhmmmm have to disagree on the hardness BE, know several WUSV competitors that are soft dogs, even some so soft that they where trained by girlfriend of handler for periods after being corrected a bit to hard by handler and blocked out

 

If you want to score points, you dont want a hard and/or stubborn dog, but one that is easy to control OR one that shifts drives real easy, I sold one dog to USA that placed real high on this years nationals, real nice dog, strong dog but easy to control, a dreamdog for points sport, his brother however is policedog material, but will never score over 90 in obedience and bitework :)

by ValK on 07 December 2018 - 18:12

Duke:
kick with a booth after unwanted behaviour is a "marker "as well

 :)

Jessejones

by Jessejones on 07 December 2018 - 18:12

Prager says:
My problem with all non-stress, non-pressure joyous obedience training being it clicker or MT in general, during learning fazes is that the dog is not establishing a leadership position during a time where it is the most important.

So, being on Pacific time over here, I get up and while I’m having my morning coffee.... I can read everything written earlier.

I come across this quote above...and almost splurt out my coffee with laughter, all over my ipad.

Prager, you CAN NOT be serious! 

What another absolutelly unqualified and untrue remark about the correct use MT.

Then you write on about imprinting 

That is why it is important to establish leadership position asap and time to use for  "Joyous, non- stress, non-pressure" MT is wasted on such effort. 

Then comes your description of old Koehler method of “forcing a sit” to teach a puppy....then you claim you are showing a puppy dominance while doing this.

I laugh.

I am guessing you also still believe in the old alpha roll too then.

As an aside: Might I remind you of how many pet owners of use this old fashioned “forcing the sit” methode too, because they don’t know better...and it does not do one whit to show you are dominant over a puppy. No matter what the breed is.
 

The only thing it does is activate the opposition reflex, in most all cases, unless you at the same time pull up on the collar. Which is adding stress that no one, especially not a very young puppy, in the imprint stage, needs.

 

Sit is easy to teach. What do you do when teaching more complex behaviors to show your “dominance”?

When teaching a NEW behavior to a puppy, you never need to show dominance in that way....or any way, when you are teaching. 

There are other much better ways to show who is boss, with pretty much Zero confrontation.

How?

By Teaching that there are rules to daily life. Every minute of the Day.These rules go into effect on day one of owning the pup and brining him home.

The pup has to EARN everything it gets.

You control all the resources. The dog or puppy complies, great! Good things come. Let the puppy decide what consequences it wants.

The dog doesnt comply after he knows better...then there are consequences. What consequences?...DEPENDS ON THE DOG AND THE SITUATION and the stage of learning.. 

You can bet your bottom dollar that once the rebellious stage comes with adolescence...if it comes....and the dog does not comply to a command it knows, I will be the first one to yank the suckers chain to where he needs to be...or a swift kick behind the legs if need be...Yes,as quick as a flash I don’t hesitate. That can be called marker training too. The whole point of marker training is...the speed with which you mark a behavior. 

Even in the house, if I tell the youngest puppy to go to its bed, after it has learned “bed” and been proofed...if pup ignores me...consequence time Post Haste...no foolin.

I use MT all the time, as do others....I will bet that none of us have major dog dominance issues with a sound dog if MT is used correctly. Even with sound but hard dogs that tend to dominance. 

Yet, you continue to equate marker training with positive only training even on page 38. Which shows you don’t get the whole concept.

 

 

 



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