"Dam Eats Pups" - we observed what she did at nite - Page 1

To all you folks thanks a lot. Actually after I got this news from this friend I went there( my bitch is also having a litter)We sat thru the night to observe what was happening. We decided we would do nothing but observe only if anything happened. We found that there were two pups that were weak in the litter.The colour near the mouth was pale pink as against healthy pups that were a good shade of red. As we sat thru the night we observed that these two pups died one after the other. we did not interfere with them but just left them as they were when they died. The bitch knew that we were there and she also did nothing. We then broke for a cup of tea for which we had to go to the kitchen- it was a boys day out without the booze. When we returned after tea we found one of the dead pups missing. The kennel is non accessible and it was clear that the bitch had eaten the dead pup to keep her kennel clean. We buried the other pup. Thereaftere we are inspecting the pups on a regular basis and I am pleased to tell you that all the remaining pups are fine.No more deaths no more murders, this bitch is fine and a great mother.

OH what good news for you. Sad that you have lost some pups but good to know about your bitch. Heather

There is an enormous difference between a bitch protecting her nest (hiding evidence of dead pups to avoid attracting prey) and a bitch who wrongly identifies whelps as threats and savages them. The first, while sad that a bitch has to deal with that, is normal, natural and to be desired. The second, whether it is through the benefits of skewed hormones or temperament, is not a quality that I would like to be propogating. It's good that you found out what is going on. It certainly helps you sleep more easily at night. JDN - US

Hi, MATHAUS This is good news for all. I am very happy to see that you have observed and found the Problem. Thanks for the update and good luck with the rest of the pups.

JanisNocak, its a good thing they didn't spay her, isn't it?

Makosh, since I have no idea what, if anything, this bitch can contribute to the breed, I have no opinion on the value of spaying her one way or the other. JDN - US

Mathaus, while your present observations may provide an explanation for this bitch's behavior with this litter, it would still concern me a great deal that she killed 7 pups in her previous litter (according to your initial post on the subject). Even if the reason for this behavior can be chalked up to the bitch disposing of failing pups, one still has to question why the whelps in her last two litters are so weak and unthrifty. You didn't mention how many pups were lost overall in the present litter, or how large either litters were from the start...but a litter with 7 unwell pups is a great cause of concern, in my opinion, and warrants obtaining a clean bill of health (including herpes virus, brucellosis and other viral or bacterial diseases which can affect the whelps) before she was bred again. Were this my bitch, Makosh, I probably would rank spaying high on the list of solutions if nothing could be found as an organic cause of the problem. The German Shepherd Dog is in no danger of becoming extinct because of the sterilization of a single dog, especially one which is either killing a good percentage of her offspring in the nest, or is producing as many as 7 weak whelps in a litter.

It is very sad that so many people do not want to go deeper, and as soon as they run into some problems, they just find the easiest way – to spay. As I stated before, the dog could kill her pups because she was overstressed and in pain, and could not find any reason for that but her new puppies. All animals, including people may do very strange things when they are in bad pain, or when hormones are jumping. Have you ever heard of PMS or post maternal depression? By the way, my first dog, who meant a whole world for me, has died after lousy done spaying (it was done for medical reasons). So now I will not spay anyone, even if I don’t plan to breed them EVER, as, for example, my dysplastic female.

And every heat cycle a bitch goes through exposes them to greater chances of pyometra, uterine cancer and mammary gland cancer. It's ALL a risk, we just have to choose which risks are acceptable and which aren't. JDN - US

Makosh wrote: "It is very sad that so many people do not want to go deeper, and as soon as they run into some problems, they just find the easiest way – to spay." Darlin', read a bit more precisely next time. This bitch didn't exhibit this behavior with just a single litter--she did it with the litter immediately prior to this one. In addition, you'll find I did state that I'd spay such a female if I were unable to find an 'organic' reason for the behavior--which would include infection, illness and/or pain. That hardly constitutes refusing to 'go deeper' or dashing off to have a spay done at the first sign of trouble. Maksosh wrote: "As I stated before, the dog could kill her pups because she was overstressed and in pain, and could not find any reason for that but her new puppies. All animals, including people may do very strange things when they are in bad pain, or when hormones are jumping. Have you ever heard of PMS or post maternal depression?" Well, given that I'm of the gender that would be affected by PMS or 'post maternal depression', it would stand to reason that I'd certainly heard of it--although there is no documentation of such things occuring in canines...and pre-menstrual syndrome (PMS) would not play any role in a bitch killing her pups, since at that point she's hardly 'pre-menstrual'--she's post-natal. Again, the concern is that this is not the first instance of this with the bitch in question--which would suggest that either there is something physically wrong that has remained unaddressed since her last litter, or the behavior is becoming habitual. Neither is a good scenario for a brood bitch. Makosh wrote: "By the way, my first dog, who meant a whole world for me, has died after lousy done spaying (it was done for medical reasons). So now I will not spay anyone, even if I don’t plan to breed them EVER, as, for example, my dysplastic female." Makosh, you have my sincere sympathy on the loss of your first dog...I certainly can understand why you'd be averse to putting another dog through such an elective surgery, after that experience. I seriously do hope that you are never faced with having to deal with a closed pyometra in your intact female, however, since having to spay a 'toxic' female poses far greater risk than such a surgery generally does for a healthy dog. I'll stand by my opinion, however, that a bitch who savages more than one of her litters should not be used for further breeding, and should be removed from the gene pool. Spaying is the most reliable way to ensure that such a bitch is never bred again, but strict policing of the female during her heats can certainly prevent that as well.