Can a submissive female be titled? - Page 1

Question for anyone who cares to answer: can a female with good prey/play drive be titled in dog sport if she has a submissive nature? What steps would need to be taken? Serious answers greatly appreciated!!!

Yes. I have trained several submissive dogs to their SchH titles. First you ought to define what you mean by submissive. Submissive to whom and when? If a dog urinates and rolls on its back when company comes to your house or if it runs away from every new person that it is introduced to, you certainly should not breed to it and you will have quite an uphill battle getting a SchH 1. But assuming your dog is not this submissive, it only requires patience, sometimes a lot of it. It may take 2-3 years of careful work which can be destroyed by rushing, cutting corners or putting pressure on your dog. Submissiveness is not a problem in either tracking or obedience for a dog who has reasonable prey or food drive. The problem is in protection. There the dog's confidence must be painstakingly built up. The helper must first become the dog's friend. Then when the dog trusts and likes the helper, the helper should play with the dog, with a ball or something else, then eventually tug of war, with the dog always winning and then slowly on to the sleeve. The stick should be introduced early but only used to pet the dog at first for a long time. Eventually during the heat of the prey struggle the dog can be hit in a way which even increases its prey drive. After that the dog will generally be comfortable with the stick. Such a dog should only be worked in prey drive all the way up through its title. To try and work such a dog in defense is not only not fair to the dog, because of the stress it will put on it, it may well change the dog for the worse. Few if any submissive dogs can be worked in fight drive because in general they don't like to fight. Just remember though, while a submissive dog can be titled by the club helper and pass on the club field, this is not a dog which is going to have much success with strange helpers or on a strange field.

What do you mean by submissive? If the dog has good solid nerves and temperament and proves that they can be titled then they would have no problem being titled. Don't expect a dog to be titled with weak nerves and temperament, unless if their forced.

Thank You Klossbruhe and Brittany! When I refer to the female as being submissive , I mean in terms of her interaction with people,including myself. If I were to raise my voice an octave,she would be belly up(but not urinating);other times ,she is all over me wanting to bite and play;perhaps a contextual thing. At any rate she is fine around other dogs - no signs of this behaviour in that respect.Only with people.She has ALWAYS been this way,even as a pup.Any hope? I would love to breed this bitch but I am realistic in my expectations and am mentally prepared for the possibility that it may not happen.I don't want to perpetuate this if it truly represents a temperament problem. In the event that she could be titled , what recommendations would you make regarding breeding? By the way , she is from conformation lines...go figure,right?

Another important question, how old is she? The fact that she is sensitive to your voice and you as master is not dispositive of any great submissiveness. You do not describe how she is around other people. That is more important than how she is around you. She is going to have to get used to the club helper (and it better be a good one, i.e. not some macho type guy which so many clubs have, but a real actor who understands dogs and isn't afraid to "lose" and be impressed by your dog and its initial weak efforts or be frustrated when she refuses to bite for 5 months, because one day when you least expect it, the light bulb will go off--I have never met a dog that would not eventually bite for me as a helper, including white shepherds!!) Submissiveness versus shyness. A dog is either dominant or its submissive. A dog might be dominant with certain people and submissive to others, this is really not a fault. But excessive shyness or insecurity is something else. YOU SHOULD NOT BREED SUCH A DOG. You won't help our breed by doing that. Have fun with her, title her, but don't breed her. But if she is just run of the mill submissive, with lots of ball and prey drive and you can make her go crazy for tug of war, then you could breed her. But only after you title her and see what her bitework is like and after you enter her in some conformation shows. If she bites well with a good strike and grip and if she does develop a little bit of fight drive, then there's no problem. But if she is a weak biter, you are unlikely to solve this by breeding to a dog which does great bitework. Although from a genetic standpoint the father & mother should contribute equally to a dog's temperment, most long time respected breeders will tell you that its the mother who is the most responsible for personality. Lastly, why does everyone want to breed their dog. I mean most dogs, even from good show or working lines, have nothing to contribute to our breed. We all love our dogs, we all, when we are feeling all soft and warm, want a puppy from our dogs--but as a responsible owner, you should ask yourself long and hard why your dog should be bred. There are far too many dogs being bred, who have no business being bred. In my club alone, we have 2 dogs from Siegers (Lasso v Neuen Berg & Yasko v Farbenspiel) and believe me, they are nothing much from a conformation standpoint or from a schutzhund performance standpoint. Owners are usually blind to their dogs faults. First get the opinion of a respected SV judge. Show your dog a some shows. See how she does. Does she come top or near the top. Do the judges say, yes this is a dog which can help our breed and which should be bred. Then go get a title on her and take a long look on her work. Is she an eager go-getter in obedience or does she merely comply to the commands. Does she do reasonable bitework. If all of these things are in place, then by all means breed her. But don't just breed her because you "want to"

Again,Thank You Klossbruhe! To answer your question...she is 3 years old as of July 2004. She is SOMETIMES,but not always shy around strangers initially, but "warms up" to them readily. When I take her out places she is very "nosy" and has no apparent insecurities about approaching strangers,but at the same time,she is NOT especially bold.With respect to her conformation...she is gorgeous...beautiful lines,near perfect angulations fore and aft,high withers,long,well positioned croup,very good pigment.Why do I want to breed her? Because she comes from good lines and I beleive that she could produce good quality dogs...let me state emphatically that I DO NOT WANT TO BREED HER FOR SENTIMENTAL REASONS!!! I am acutely aware of the damage that does to the breed down the road! This is an undertaking that I take very seriously and as such, will not breed her at all if I am advised that it would not be in the best interest of German Shepherd Dogs! However, I am hoping to eventually establish a breeding program of my own and so I have been diligent in my study of the breed with respect to conformation,bloodlines,genetics,etc...there is always something new to learn and so I am taking the time to do that now before commencing with the actual process. I hope this answers your question.Again,thanks so much for your response.I appreciate all of the knowledgeable feedback that I can get...keep it coming..:).

Yes you can get to quite high levels with a passive bitch, we had a bitch (cara)she is sadly no longer living.. my husband competed up to championship c in obediance here in the uk, she was very soft natured girl... but would go as far to say she was the best worker we have had to date, you had to keep a quite tone of voice with her....but always a joy to be with

There is a difference in my opinion between sensitive and submissive... what would be important would be her ability to bouonce back after a correction or adversity. I don't at all mind a dog sensitive to me... I have a bitch right now out of 2 really nice working dogs, she is extremely sensitive to my voice and my body language and does react.. so I have to be sure I am always in the right frame of mind for training - but she is so willing and happy to do everything... just my 2cents

there were a lot excellent / good comments on this site from members in regards to this topic .. nice to see this .. one feature about schutzhund is that compared to other dog sports .. temperament faults of a dog can easily be masked ... i am not saying the submissiveness is a fault ..but i am saying rahter that many a dog can do things given the right conditioning and interaction and learning with the dog .. i had a friend whose dog wouldn't chase a ball -- aftyer 2 years of age did [ prey rive ] protection work on a bite siut with stick hits !! sometimes a softer dog is better than a dog to full of himself , overly aggressive and hard to control for the novice .. but i think that yes in terms of the definition of submissiveness ... BOTTOM LINE here for everyone is never never never work a dog UNLESS YOU UNDERSTAND the temperament [ mind set , feeling , stress level , drive etc etc ] of the dog . What i do is NOT TRAIN ... my outlook is that what you do should be a way of life for you and the dog ... for example if you think a dog is sbmissive then what i would do is to make sure this dog is socialized , socialized socialized and part of the socialization process , downtown , in the park , grocery store is to let the build confidence with many people ...they can play ball , a little tug for 2 secs let the dog win .. my approach is always behavioral[ step by steop , small peices of the picture at the start ] ... let the dog learn that everyone is a friend for play play play -- then the rest of protection work is just the same picture for the dog .. a new friend to play games . this is that your dog needs confidence building and the concept that it is ok with others and that it will have FUN too . schutzhund should not be work to dogs ..the dog should not have to be worrisome .. therfore submissivenss shouldn't be an issue .. it is a character test and a fun sport .. personal protection is work . always use prey drive .. let the dog chase chase chase and win win win . YOU CANNOT MAKE A DOG WHAT IT IS NOT but YOU CAN ENHANCE CHARACTERR ALWAYS !! so have some fun ---

<<<>>> What does that mean? you have received alot of great advice for any dog no matter the breed or lineage. there are submissive dogs in all varieties, some can be fixed, some can not. good luck with your responsible decision whether to add this into the breeding pool Regards, Dawnmarie