Oops. Pacing vs. troting - Page 2

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by Blitzen on 11 October 2004 - 08:10

Preston, you and I both got into this crazy hobby at the same time. I didn't have a GSD til 94, but knew I wanted one back in the early 70's and set about meeting as many breeders and seeing as many dogs as I could. It just happened that most breeders in this area at that time had American lines except for Harlan Gibbs, Kragspoint. Harlan imported a number of nice dogs from Germany and he went on to become an AKC judge. I guess his best known dog was Brandywine's Fels. Maybe you knew him. I guess it's OK to mention his name since he passed on a while back? Anyway, the first GSD I fell for was one of Harlan's breeding. It surely is hard to breed a good dog of any breed, but I think it's especially hard with this breed. There are so many expectations, not only must they look good, they need to perform too. It takes a really dedicated person to stick with it and do the job the right way. As the old saying goes, if it were easy, everyone would be doing it.

by wildthing on 16 October 2004 - 21:10

pacing is certainly not a natural gait if at all for the good german shepherd. Especially the West German Shepherds. I have never seen it happen, and I feel it is so rare that you think your seeing pacing. This is what a horse does in harnass racing. The Amish use the Pacers because they are so smooth to pull their buggies in the U.S. Pacing in dogs... something I must see to believe it.!! Dogs that are nervous or whatever will hop more than anything other than their trot into the show ring. Of course they run too, when playing.

by wildthing on 16 October 2004 - 21:10

I STAND CORRECTED: The amble is also a type of gait in which the front and hind legs on the same side move in unison with each other as a pair. The amble is similar to the pace in all respects except that it is slower, and, while in the pace both feet on the same side hit the ground simultaneously, in the amble the rear foot of the pair is raised off the ground just a fraction sooner than the front foot, and the rear foot is also brought into ground contact a little earlier. The amble can also be described as a fast rocking walk which is often seen as a transition movement between the walk and faster gaits. As a transition movement it should not be confused with pacing. The fastest movement of the dog, the gallop, is a four-time gait in which the dog is fully suspended or airborne once during each motion sequence. The actual movement pattern is right front foot, left front foot, right rear foot, left rear foot. Suspension occurs immediately after taking off from the left rear foot. According to Stonehenge, "Perfection of the gallop depends upon the power of extending the shoulders and forelegs as far as possible, as well as bringing the hind legs rapidly forward to give the propulsive stroke. If the hindquarters are good and well-brought into action, while the shoulders do not thrust the forelegs well forward, the action is labored and slow. On the contrary, if the shoulders do their duty, but the hind legs are not brought well forward, or do not thrust the body onwards with sufficient force, the action may be elegant, but it is not powerful and rapid. For these purposes, therefore, we require good shoulders, good thighs, a good back, and, lastly, for lodging the lungs and heart, whose actions are essential for the maintenance of speed, a well-formed and capacious chest."

by Preston on 18 October 2004 - 06:10

wildthing, sorry but you don't know what you are talking about. The pace is very natural for a German Shepherd that is being displayed on lead at an SV dog show. Go to any major dog show in Germanyy or view any video of such and you will have to admit that when the GSDs are being displayed at slower speeds (which is most of the time). When the speed is increased a correctly structured GSD will shift into a gait. Don't just take my word on this find out for yourself first hand ringside at next years Sieger Show in Germany.

by Blitzen on 18 October 2004 - 16:10

I think it's interesting to add to this discussion that, at one time, it was thought by serious canine movment authorities that the GSD's gait was unique as it was the only breed to move with a suspended gait where all 4 feet left the ground at the same time albeit for a a split second. With the use of videos, we now know that all dogs move that way, it is just more exagerated in the GSD. This brings me to a question, do the Germans breed for the flying trot as do the Americans? I've noticed in movment photos that the German bred dogs overreach as much as the American lines and I would consider their gait to be a flying trot and comparable to that of most of the American line show dogs. I thought I read somewhere that the Germans do not like the flying trot, consider it inefficient, but it looks to me like the big winners do move that way.

by Preston on 19 October 2004 - 06:10

Blitzen, the answer is "no they don't", but a few dogs end up with that capability. But since this trait can only be displayed fully "loose lead" (and someonewhat on off-lead but not consistently as well), it is very hard to ever find out. Lenny (of this site) just imported a male which actually moves properly and optimally with a flying trot. Lenny has a movie of him on his site estahaus kennels. It is my view that the german method of training and showing (the "pull, pull, pull" like draft animals) actually conditions muscles and ligaments to not move properly loose lead, so it's hard to tell. Some do it anyway and these dogs are most valuable. I have found analyzing the movement of some american dogs in slo motion (1/1000 of a second)that their extreme sidegait is quite faulty (the long lower leg prevents full opening of the hock and presents as a spring being wound up and discharged with a lot of wasted power and motion to propel the dog). Some german kennels known for most extreme, but correct sidegait are Monchberg Kennels and Laacher Haus (some of their dogs are very correct movers loose lead and have very long correctly angled croups).

by Blitzen on 19 October 2004 - 17:10

Hello Preston, I looked at the Estahaus site and the video, very impressive dog. In fact, they are all very nice, I am especially fond of one of the young bitches, the one with the video showing her moving inside her kennel run. Nice toplines on all too. This is not an ad for this kennel, I do not know the gentleman. One thing I really do like about the SV style of gaiting is that the dogs are allowed to extend their necks and keep their heads at shoulder level, that gives such a sound look to the dog with the strong, level topline. No wasted motion there; as the old saying goes, a correct moving dog should be able to carry a glass of water on it's back and never spill a drop. I think it does have to do with their being allowed to pull. I breed a draft dog and we always know when they're slacking in harness and not pulling, their heads will be held high and their tails will rise above their backs. The driver always says - if you can see the dog's anus and more than the tips of his ears, he's just along for the ride LOL. Anwway, the best way to really get a look at movement is on a video and, as you said, in slow motion. Unfortunately, judges don't have that luxury in the ring, so must develope a good eye for the dog and movement. I wonder why so many people, both AKC and SV exhibitors, use such horrible movement photos in their ads and on their websites. Some of those dogs actually look as if they are in pain.





 


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