German Shepherd Dog > Interesting SL/WL cross. What do youo like or dislike about the cross (90 replies)
by darylehret on 13 June 2012 - 16:37
Funny you should say that, did you see her breed survey?
I would guess that if someone were hellbent on conducting a show/working cross, she's not a bad choice for the working side of the equation. She doesn't impress in the conformation, but her actual offspring don't "look" bad at all. I would perhaps select a more substantial male with strong secondary sex characteristics. I won't watch or remark on video, as I assume a strong performer in protection work is a rarity in any case from the showline variety. Provided whatever male that's chosen for her isn't an outright disgrace, perhaps the bitch can pick up the tab on this date.
by UglyK9 on 13 June 2012 - 16:42
I think we were posting at the same time Darylehret. This was the last breeding from her. 3-4 on Yoschy. out of This male. http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=550513.
by Ramage on 13 June 2012 - 16:42
|Sort of off topic, but related to that video ... how many times can a dog keep going back for the survey? Until it gets lucky?? Or is it a 3 strike rule? |
I'm going to refrain from commenting on that video. I'm amazed it's even posted on Youtube.
by darylehret on 13 June 2012 - 17:08
|Not showline, but if I could choose "any" dog for her, I think I'd like Opal von der Röderburg or Ellex vom Salztalblick.|
by cage on 13 June 2012 - 18:08
|If the dog fails for 3 times,he/she is excluded from breeding.Slovak BSTs have been recorded since 2004 or maybe a year sooner,I am not sure for 100 per cent,would have to check that in the Club magazine Kynologicke noviny.|
by Gustav on 13 June 2012 - 18:46
|@ Cage....that 9 month old puppy appears to be a fine representative of the breed.....good drives, good intensity, not unsure of him self, excellent response to pressure at that age.....not saying perfect dog, but surely what I would expect from any line. Just a good solid dog. And when they are like that as opposed to the other video posted you get no negative stuff from me.|
by djc on 13 June 2012 - 19:20
There is no surprise there as Darth is a Karats Ulk son! Tremendous work producing background for this dog as the mother line also has old Kirschental and Fedor in it. I have a Karats Ulk son who is very "real" and on the man! Even Flinks said he would own him, after working him. He said " A showline I like! I would own this dog!" "He loves the work, has full strong and calm grips" That's him in my avatar.
by zdog on 13 June 2012 - 22:53
|why is someone even thinking of breeding that dog??? WTF is all that comes to mind. I understand a dog can have a bad day, but come on. Quit making excuses and start making wise breeding decisions please|
by ColdWaterCreek on 13 June 2012 - 23:08
|I think, for that female, there are many many better choices in males. I haven't been in the breed for very long compared to some of you but since the poster asked for opinions, I will gladly offer mine. |
The purpose of any breeding should be to better the breed and I don't see where that is going to happen here. For a male of "VA" structure (In what country did he VA?) he is tall and lacks good height to length ratios in addition to poor secondary sex characteristics. That video his work was disturbing at best and in my opinion, he shouldn't be bred to anything. Ever! I love the showline dogs but even I am not blind to the fact that at best, only 20% of them are actually worth breeding. This male clearly falls into the 80% of paper titled/midnight trialed nerve bags that are better suited for knocking back cans of Alpo than knocking down decoys. You could show me 100 videos of him doing decent work and it still wouldn't erase the images of him falling off the sleeve and flinching away from the stick that have now been burned into my brain forever.
I am not a huge fan of mixing the two lines, but if I were going to do it, this bitch is an excellent example of a proper candidate. If she were my bitch, I would have done one of the two mentioned linebreedings from her Kkl. Judging from her last litter, I'm not sure how one makes the leap from linebreeding on Yoschy to breeding to a spooky "VA". If it were my bitch and I was absolutely determined to breed her to a showline, I would have found a male much more worthy of her in conformation but also, and more importantly, in working ability. My greatest fear in this breeding would be the very real potential that one could end up with an entire litter of marginally ugly dogs with squat for working ability.
That's just how I see it.
by Gustav on 13 June 2012 - 23:17
|Debby, First, I would like to say that I agree with you about Timo in terms of strong working....yes he was sable, but his record doesn't reflect exceptional working SL, ok yes, but strong not particularly.|
Let's go under the surface of Darthanian, because I think he demonstrates breeders who bred SL that were keeping working still in the place it should be. His sire is Karats Ulk, who you have first hand knowledge of ability to produce working dogs. Karats father is Ghandi and his mother is Lilskan. Ghandi is linebred 4-4 on Cello vom Romerau. Lilskan is linebred 3-4 on Cello vom Romerau. Cello was known for his producing working ability in Showlines. Maybe this is because Cello was linebred on one of the great females of that era, Wilma von Kisselschlut. Wilma's lines in 5 generations go back to Bodo v Lierberg, Jalk v Fohlenbrunnen, Arras vom Adam-Riesenzwinger, and Valet v Busecker Schlob. All of these dogs were known to produce strong dogs for any line.
Darthanian's mother, Zaira, besides being very highly titled, has a sire of Laius vom Moorbeck, Laius is out of Vando who was 5,5,5-5,5 on Lasso di val Solie. Lasso was considered Quanto's best producing son in terms of working ability. Very moderate dog of immense working aptitude. Zaira's mother was Wanesa Vlady-Sal, who was linebred 5-5 on Nick vd Wienerau. Nick, who went back to Mutz through his son Jonny vd Rheinhalle, is also known for producing strong working dogs within the SL.
So we see this male was built to be able to have good strong temperament. If you look at many of his ancestors, they are more moderate than the backmassed Canto lines, as he is backmassed on Quanto, primarily through his best working son Lasso and the big investment of Wilma. This is a nice pedigree in terms of structure and temperament, and its not a coincidence to me, the source of the breeding.JMO
by djc on 14 June 2012 - 01:06
|Absolutely Gustav!! I was not going to go into that detail but you did a fantastic job!! Yes, I forgot to mention Vando and how his influence was also for very good work. Thank you for going into the detail and helping others to know that sl's that work well do not happen by chance, they are researched and bred very carefully. My Karats Ulk son's dam's lines go to Sagus B.S. in the 6th generation, as well as Ando Altenberger Land and Vando. I know Sagus doesn't count in a line breeding for him, per say, but he has worked REALLY well in wl/sl crosses with bitches that have Sagus closer. Here is his pedigree:|
by yellowrose of Texas on 14 June 2012 - 02:48
| Absolutely Gustav:|
Thanks for the excellent tracing..YOU say it best and how it shows up..
by judron55 on 14 June 2012 - 11:22
|I have worked some very nice van Corsalabroek (sp) males....not sure if they still breed. I am interested in that bloodline...Vimo van Corsalabroek, a Ingo vom Horand son was very nice on and off the field. His dam is Tessa van Corsalabroek. Powerful...superb grips and aggression...courage test to die for...There were others imported from this kennel that went to Maryland, I believe....|
by gsd100 on 15 June 2012 - 16:39
|How is this Leon dog even VA rated? I thought the dog needed to be SchH2 minimum to be VA.|
by cage on 15 June 2012 - 21:28
|I don´t think he is VA rated, I remember he was V6 in the main specialty show not VA 6.|
by charlie319 on 04 October 2012 - 16:21
|Saw the pup a couple of weeks ago. The dam stamped her genetics pretty well. Seems to have good and open temperament. Good focus and prey drive. Would be a good universal dog. Dam is extremely agile and healthy for her age. Looks at least a couple of years younger than her age.|
by Hundmutter on 04 October 2012 - 20:09
|I have to say that although Leon flunked out, the sport field isn't everything in terms of good temperament.|
I once saw a video of Leon being walked - calmly - through a crowded market place. Now THAT might be
actually more use as a skill than facing up to a decoy waving a stick at a dog, for my circumstances. Maybe
for some other owners ?
Protection work has its place but it really ain't the be-all and end-all.
by GSDPACK on 04 October 2012 - 21:22
I must have superdogs as they all go downtown to the market, accompany me to 4th of july fireworks in the park, have kids attempting to ride them like horses, yet...tnone of them is a dog you can run off the field because it is little warmer then yesterday bad day!
I did not see the correct temperament of a German shepherd dog. I saw a dog that looked like a GSD but lacked the TEMPERAMENT of one.
Not every dog must be a tough nasty male, but the video did not even show me something I would like to take for free.
I am sure he is not a bad dog, but he is not what a GSD should be..... and utilizing him for breeding? I would have to see some serious turn around in his progeny!
by Gustav on 05 October 2012 - 02:03
|And liking water isn't the end all to be all for a Labrador retriever .....but I sure wouldn't see one that didn't as being strong in breed type!|
by trixx on 05 October 2012 - 02:47
|that video of Leon was so bad, i would never ever breed to a SL with this bad a nerves, for god sake the helper did not do any thing. i am a SL person and i hate to say it but this really makes the SL look very bad, i am glad i have very good nerve SL. i would agree this is very bad protection, i would be imbaresed to own this dog. not to mention he did not even do the ob part right either. LOL|