Constant Unsureness in a Dog: What causes this? - Page 3

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Prager

by Prager on 28 April 2016 - 18:04

I would definitely not blame genetics. Not in this case. I firmly believe that no matter how much drive the dog has it can be trained. The main problem was mentioned by centurion. Dogs with high drive needs to be trained from calm and not from top of their drive. In another way the trainer rewards the dog not just when the dog is under control but when the dog's mind is defused and calm. if done consistently and repeatedly then brain of such dog becomes to be conditioned to become calm in order for the dog to get bite.

However if the dog and especially this type of a dog, is trained from top of his drive by rewarding him for being "crazy " driven with bite, then such high driven dog will be out of control and then in order to establish some  resemblance of control, harsh corrections are introduced improperly and they, due to the extreme drive, often do not work thus next is e collar and more e collars are introduced.

By training from top of the drive ( instead of from calm) is thus setting such dog up for failure, which then is encountered with an effort of the trainer control such training negatively which in high drive dogs may not be possible and may lead to situation where the dog comes up the leash and bit the handler dog is insecure as described by OP.

 Prager Hans 


by Centurian on 29 April 2016 - 01:04

Prager .. perhaps in many cases what you write is so . ---- I agree genetics of the dog can be such that the innate motivation can be good , although intense / extreme in the dog . Yes , incorrect handling of the dog can make innate behavior expressed twice as intense , ie. aggression.
But also bad , very bad genetics related to aggression in many lines now do exist and in a lot more lines than people are willing to admit to !! Took me a while to actually come to acknowledge this truth . I used to think many , just about all dogs I could iron out. Then I had to admit : There are Bad Genetics with good or bad handlers and Great Dogs with good and bad handlers . . Both scenarios exist and have merit.
But through the decades , having trained with the best in Germany , some whose fathers had GS going back as WW II , they have shown me through the past 60 years , the breeding practices have led to a very disproportionate number of dogs with to much , way way to much, aggression and/or faulty aggression. These dogs, in the diluted sense of the word , do not have good mindset genetically , which underlies aggression behavior. In reference to what you wrote : YES , I emphasize : Different types of aggression actually come from different centers of the brain . Yes , you are absolutely correct Prager , different centers of the brain are conditioned and therefore different types of aggression , good and bad manifest. I also have found that many helpers/decoys cannot recognize the types of aggression , from where it comes within the dog's head and it's instinct. Some dogs in fact have a predisposition from genetics to certain bad aggression behaviors , no matter the training.
Yes , Prager, I see in protection , the use of prong collars , incorrectly used . Unknowingly by handlers/helpers they ADD to the aggression. They don't recognize this in the aggressive behavior of the dog and it can be avoided training high aggressive dogs. Example , I always teach the dog to go straight in to the helper, toe to toe , for bark and hold, even if it is on a porch literally and figuratively , as Prager would call it. :-). BTW i teach a puppy this at 16 weeks , no collar or leash .. Why ... because later in the blind I don't have to use a long line and gerk the he** out of the dog, gerk him violently backwards back because he didn't go in straight.[ BTW i don't train anything that interferes with development of a fast , hard entry , gerking back is counter training] . So, the use of harsh corrections that create bad aggression responses can be avoided with some dogs high in aggression if someone understands how to think about the dog in training. I agree with Prager on this .

The Germans discuss over aggression genetically with we me over a decade ago: we were training some GS for IPO . there were some very very aggressive dogs. The person discussing this was a SV protection Judge , he said point blank .. the aggression in this dog is to genetic based, this dog is not a good dog for this., the aggression is not good - difficult to control this dog.

Although I do agree with Prager's point too -what does exist often is faulty training by many with good dogs extremely high in aggression and high in hardness .They don't teach calmness and they don't understand signals from the dog as to what is going on in it's head. Many many people are stuck categorizing , prey drive, defense drive... and they don't realize the dog's brain and behavior can change in a microsecond from one to the other and back. Better yet Prager.. I don't know how many times I tell them : if you want calmness from the dog , YOU first must project and act with calmness , yourself.. they can't even do that !! I still battle with people that do not know how and when to BALANCE the aggression with self control within the dog. I can't get through to them , how important that balance is during training. It's critical *. They just don't understand the differentiation between you controlling the dog and the dog learning to channel itself to be calm , not crazed,frantic or hectic or they don't have the ability to interact with the dog in that manner.
Prager mentioned insecure. So I pose a rhetorical question top the posters . for me it is the operative question I ask : Is the dog insecure about himself , the task/work , or the handler ? . ... Your views ??

by Nans gsd on 29 April 2016 - 01:04

OK Centurian: I will give you whether handlers know what aggression they are working in or whether the aggression is genetic. But that was my point in my earlier post. Great days everyone Nan

Mithuna

by Mithuna on 29 April 2016 - 02:04

Centurian

He never said a handler aggressive dog is suitable for police work. He said the dog is frustrated when it is capped and the dog redirects both at the handler and the decoy. Since the Ob requirement in police work is less stringent than IPO, the dog would fare better at police work.

 

btw centurian: which lines are known for this disproportionate aggression?


by Haz on 29 April 2016 - 14:04

Some of the very best lines in both Mal and GSD can have handler aggression.
It is not surprising when you breed for big drive, intensity, dominance, courage, etc over many generations.

I see handler aggression more in dogs not raised from pups. Tend to be males brought in around 2 years plus. If you are smart you feel out the dog see what the triggers are either work through them or avoid them if its easy to do. It takes time, patients, and respect for the dog.

My current dog (thank you Duke) initially I did not like so much but every month he became stronger and our relationship became better. He works well on the field and is very nice in the house. We just made IPO2 and compete in regionals in 1 month.

Yes he has some triggers, but I worked through or around them because they are very few and easy enough to avoid. I like his work enough and respect the dog enough to do this. Not all dogs are worth this, its up to the handler to decide.

There is no absolutes, depends on dog, your personal life, your skill, what the dog brings to the table etc.







by Centurian on 29 April 2016 - 15:04

Mithua ,
.- I don't ask questions to people about their dogs. In my world , I don't tell people what I think. , i don't talk about the dogs ! Those opinions i keep to my self. Please respect that if you would.
My mentor 30 years ago , gave me advice : he stated to not comment to people how they train , their dogs or how they breed . Because when they hear what you say truthfully they will become hostile and envious of what you do and your dogs . In life I keep to myself and my mouth shut. More so , I would never post information that you requested on line or any e mail , social media. Sorry , for not answering your question . Please understand my platform. I will say : my favorite lines , and I had progeny from him was Fado Karthago.
In general , both mals and shepherds , the bent of many lines has changed specifically in the aspect of the mindset of the dog, much much more than breeders want to admit , owners/ trainers want to admit . Anyone honest and in the know will second that statement. This is big business and big money . nobody appreciates the money tree being shaken . the dog world , like the horse world , fierce and quite corrupted. Are there good dogs , yes a multitude of good dogs , but not everyone has the dog's best interest at heart. Once the word is out a certain line produces over aggressive dogs , that kennel is done. And try to prove it in a court of law. Already , many people are in a tizzy for what i just wrote , and this is a general commentary. I leave it at that- I let each decide for themselves and to have an open mind to agree or disagree with what I state.
Haz , I am pleased you recognize the aggression . Yes some countries test dogs when they are older . And you can see that many dogs in the puppyhood years were kennel dogs by their behavior patterns. Therefore , they have lost a lot of experience. So , in part , I write again , in part , what you say at times does play a role. When I test a dog , I strip away the environmental factors and look strictly at the genetics. So , now you bring up two issues , the raising of the dogs as well as the genetics itself . Unfortunately , an over aggressive dog is an over aggressive dog. Can some be behaviorally re conditioned , perhaps , yes. Others from the genetics are hopeless -you will never change the dog. Can we handle such dogs , me and you YES.. Others it is a disaster waiting to happen.
Foolish police officers [ and perhaps sport people ] can't see that when a dog does not have a proper foundation and rearing , that opens up the door for a problem dog. a serious problem . Furthermore , I will state emphatically what you wrote is being done and many police dogs , in reality [ if you have good canine knowledge] should not be police dogs . Perhaps the same applies for sport dogs , with these dogs titled for breeding purposes and/or for purpose to be sold as adults !! Directed to novices : if you think this not true.... I tell you : just because a dog has a temperament problem / flaw .. that does not mean *[ emphasized ] that it cannot work or even get titled . I know .---Many times we worked with dogs with temperament flaws in protection that were owned by friends as their home companions only. So don't think dogs aren't raised improperly and then are sold is so uncommon. _ unless you disagree -OK ..






 


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