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ForumsGerman Shepherd Dog > Pinch Collars and Choke Chains? (27 replies)
Pinch Collars and Choke Chains? by fawndallas on 14 June 2012 - 03:47 |
| Curious questions for the trainers. What is the expectation of using these during training? Can this same expectation be accomplished with a normal collar and training? General impressions on the pros / cons on these training collars? |
fawndallas by SitasMom on 14 June 2012 - 04:13 |
depends on the dog and the trainer. |
by Chaz Reinhold on 14 June 2012 - 04:36 |
| I would ask a breeder. |
Chaz Reinhold by Avery Hill Kennels on 14 June 2012 - 04:45 |
| Choke does damage to the neck and esophagus as a correction but has the "snap" that can be heard and felt by the dog Prong collars are designed to "pinch" an area for correction. Not the entire neck but a small area on the dogs neck. Used correctly prong collars are more humane even though they look like midieval devices to a laymen. |
Avery Hill Kennels by Pirates Lair on 14 June 2012 - 06:21 |
| Choke does damage to the neck and esophagus as a correction but has the "snap" that can be heard and felt by the dog Prong collars are designed to "pinch" an area for correction. Not the entire neck but a small area on the dogs neck. Used correctly prong collars are more humane even though they look like midieval devices to a laymen. Please stop providing your ignorant and limited knowledge of Dog Training and the Equipment used in the same, to uneducated people looking for advice. Anyone looking for advice on Dog Training should do their Research and find a Professional Trainer in their area. Not here! JMO Kim |
Pirates Lair by AmbiiGSD on 14 June 2012 - 06:51 |
| Start as you mean to go on and use neither. |
AmbiiGSD by workingdogz on 14 June 2012 - 09:24 |
| Mainly depends on the dog itself. My young dog laughs hysterically at a correction from a fur saver, he giggles, chuckles and just plain snickers at the choke chain. He finds the ability to 'get his shit together' and work when he met the prong collar. I use less 'physical force' with a prong than I had to apply on a fursaver. None of the collars mentioned are 'cruel', they can however be used in an inhumane/incorrect manner. But, we've seen 'trainers' be inhumane with a flat nylon collar  Use the tools that work with the dog. Don't try to make the dog fit with your tools. When in doubt, find someone with some experience and seek help. |
by fawndallas on 14 June 2012 - 14:14 |
| Definitely. My trainer mentor showed me how to use the choke collar. It seemed that there were more dogs that ignored it than not. ----------------- I would not use a pinch without pro mentoring. Any suggestions on a professional trainer in either Dallas or east Texas that would mentoring me on the correct use of the collar? |
by Avery Hill Kennels on 14 June 2012 - 14:31 |
| Pirates Liar Choke collars can damage neck/vertebra and esophagus many trainers do advise against using them One trainer that advises against using chokes because they can damage the dogs neck/vertebras/esophagus, is a nobody Bernhard Flinks sure you have never heard of him guess he's just ignorant with limited training knowledge. And recommends using the pinch for better correction with out damaging the dogs neck. I guess me and old dumb ass Bernhard will just shut up and you can handle all questions about training collars from here on out<shrugs> Oh you can do some research and see what comes up about choke collars and damage to the neck while you are helping the poster research a world renowned professional trainer such as yourself. JMO |
by destiny4u on 14 June 2012 - 15:56 |
| maybe if you like to hang your dogs |
by GSDdrive1 on 14 June 2012 - 16:33 |
| Pirates Lair. Bit of a harsh reaction to Avery Hill Kennels response, especially considering that the information is spot on. Fawndallas is doing their research by asking for advice in this forum. You could have simply suggested that they do their due diligence which would include talking to an experienced trainer. |
by minro on 14 June 2012 - 16:45 |
| I don't use choke collars, as I don't see a use for them in training my dogs. I use pinch collars for training, walks, potty breaks, basically all the time. As I was growing up, my family had a Golden Retriever, perfectly behaved with no formal training, never needed a pinch or choke. Just a flat. But now that I have two GSD's and a crazy little Aussie mix, pinch collars are my best friend. I would say that pinch collars are not meant to be used on every dog, but neither are flat collars. My dogs have high drive and high energy. Sometimes they just need that correction from a pinch when they're all worked up that would, with a choke or flat collar, damage their trachea/neck. I have worked my dogs in bitework with their pinches on - for short periods - and they don't even notice when they're pulling on it. In my opinion, it really depends on the kind of dog you have and what their disposition calls for. But to answer your question... I think generally speaking (there are obviously always exceptions), you CAN get the same result with a flat collar, but it will take loads more work and patience. |
by fawndallas on 14 June 2012 - 17:06 |
| Thanks minro. |
by Niesia on 14 June 2012 - 18:11 |
| I use pinch collar only during main obedience and 'behavior' training then I'm fazing out to choke chain. Well fitted pinch collar works wonders on those hard headed, strong teenagers with thick mane... They usually train themselves pretty quick. Also correction of the unwanted behavior is more to the point instead of a 'constant nagging' of the choke chain. I use Herm Sprenger - it has more rounded ends and no quick-release. They can snap open pretty easily... Short fitted medium choke chain with toggle for show and normal go around as I usually don't use it for training or corrections . However I've seen people hang their dogs on choke chains many times. My dogs usually don't have flat collars as it destroys their fur. I use them mainly in combination with pinch collar during training as a 'positioning' handle. |
Niesia by DebiSue on 14 June 2012 - 19:25 |
| I use a pinch for just about everything...I call it power steering. Echo ignores a flat or rolled collar and the fursaver doesn't get her attention. She self corrects with a pinch. I will never use a choke chain again. They are dangerous and dogs will choke themselves out pulling against them...and I'm not talking about hanging them. If you have doubts about the pinch, put it around your bare arm and give it a snap. All collars will work if used correctly but the choke chain will continue to tighen to the point where you can't snap it if your dog is ignoring it and has hit the end of the leash. Don't even consider one. Good luck and be patient. The dog only wants to please you. Remember that. |
DebiSue by Stash Kitty on 14 June 2012 - 19:27 |
| Any training tool can injure a dog if used incorrectly. While it is possible to damage the trachea and hyoid of a dog with a slip collar, this does not happen when the collar is used correctly. It is possible to do similar damage with a buckle collar if it is used incorrectly. It is possible to damage a dog's eyes or cervical vertebrae if a head collar is used incorrectly. It is possible to bruise or even puncture a dog's neck skin if a prong collar is used incorrectly. However, none of these tools will harm a dog if used correctly. If a dog is started off correctly from puppy-hood, special training devices are unlikely to be needed. If the pup learns loose leash walking before he is 3 months old, he is far less likely to pull on the leash when he is older. The exception may be in boisterous adolescents. Some adolescents forget their brains and turn into canine pinballs or tether balls. They can injure themselves hitting the end of the leash at high speed and with the full force of their growing inertia. They can also injure their trainer by knocking them over. And they can rip the leash out of the trainer's hand and run into traffic. When boisterous behavior reaches a level of endangering handler or dog, a temporary training device, such as a prong collar, may be warranted. It should never become a way of life. It should be used for emergency control, short term, and in conjunction with training to correct the problem behavior, not just manage it. My pups start on martingales set so that at their tightest they are just against the skin and not restricting. This is because I've had too many pups manage to squirrel their way out of buckle collars. When I use a prong collar on a boisterous adolescent, I use a slip collar as backup because I have had even a good Herm Springer prong collar pop open unexpectedly and release a dog. A slip collar never comes off unexpectedly and unless it is in terrible condition or the wrong size to begin with, it never fails. My adults work on buckle collars with only two functions: to provide a place to attach the tags, and a place to attach the leash required by law in my city. I do not need the collar for control, because my dog is trained. |
by fawndallas on 14 June 2012 - 21:48 |
| excellent Stash Kitty and DebiSue. Thank you for your insight. I have taken from this thread: These collars are only as a back up plan for a hard headed dog. Choke chains are as I thought; except for rare conditions, mostly a useless device. I know my male GSD was "trained" with one. He has always ignored it completely. Not sure what his trainer thought he got out of it. Pinch collars work, but the user must know how to use it correctly. If you need either collar, go with this one. Use these sparingly. A well trained dog generally will not need one. There are exceptions to this rule; especially on the more driven dogs. Even they reach a point in their training where the collar is not really needed anymore as "what my human says is law and I must obey." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~` Thanks everyone for your input. I still have one question: Any trainer recommendations in the Texas area (not restricted to DFW) where I can get hands on training for the pinch collar? I frequently travel all over Texas and I do not mind a weekend trip. Oklahoma is ok too. |
by Pirates Lair on 14 June 2012 - 22:22 |
| Avery Hill Kennels My response to your post was harsh, and uncalled for. My apologies kim |
by yellowrose of Texas on 14 June 2012 - 23:45 |
| I have used pinch collars for years and If I had not been shown I would never have made it thru training...thanks to A great german judge many years ago.. I use fur savers and have for 25 years..ALL my dogs go on trips with fur savers hanging on the back of each kennel..never put any dog in any kennel , crate or even for playing with collars on..they get hung, lost, and can cause damage..but use them for walking, training and for obedience out in public .. I never hung a dog nor damaged one with any collar..I could not train without a pinch or a fur saver..I would never put any clothe collars as they mat hair and get dirty looking fast. I have seen large dogs with flat nylon cord collar slip right out of them in public..the reason for choke collars is to stop the dog immediately....but if dog has not training and has no clue then damage can happen... Cannot fix stupidity. Fawn..kudos to you again for doing your research...I have some suggestions in Dallas area..will email you..ok reality strikes again....(inside joke) Yr |
yellowrose of Texas by swingfield on 15 June 2012 - 00:57 |
| start at the 'bottom' of the collars.. if a leather or nylon collar works.. then you are good.. if not go 'up' in strength.. some people can give an appropriate correction with a simple nylon collar and a soft dog on top of that.. if the dog isnt responding try a bump up in.. say a thicker choke.. the smaller links can 'zip' pretty quick for a good correction and then maybe one time is all it takes to get their attention. I am not a strong as a 'big guy' trainer.. so I sometimes need to use a pinch for a quick attitude attention getter.. then step back down.. but they are tools for 'training'.. not discipline.. so I guess my own opinion as a trainer.. is listen to your dog.. if you are getting pulled and cant get their attention.. bump up for a bit.. work a little harder on the brain.. rather than some play.. and see if that helps..! gosh.. this is just my own opinion.. so good luck to you!! you are getting a lot of help and wisdom here !!! you will find a trainer that believes the same way you do in the final outcome of your dogs.. and then it will all come together!! |
swingfield
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