Natural drives - Page 4

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by duke1965 on 05 April 2020 - 11:04

@ hundmutter, again, not a trained dog, no trained behaviour, just showing what he wants to do as opposed to pups who dont want to do anything other then what they are shaped and clickered or compulsioned to do, and the downsides in working and breeding such shaped up dogs

and dont worry about my clothes I wear while working dogs, they dont last long LOL


yogidog

by yogidog on 05 April 2020 - 11:04

Duke sent your a pm thanks

by Centurian on 05 April 2020 - 12:04

Post Script to my last post .

If I cannot control the context such that I cannot in any way under the sun convince this puppy , to get this puppy to decide , to leave the bite using any other tactic other than my brute force ... or the pup is so determined to not let what it has in it's mouth go , then,,, and here is the big then : Am I going to have control problems with this dog when it matures ,when it exerts his confidence, dominance and comes into his own ? Hmmm - who knows.

What I do think about : If this is what it is like as a pup , what , again " what" is this puppy going to be like as an adult ? In my mind , and I am very very very good at getting any [ normal ] dog off a bite without force , if no way in hell I can achieve this with a puppy , then what chance will I have with success at this as an adult ? If I cannot outsmart a puppy , then how in the wolrd am I going to confront this same bent in this same puppy dog as an adult ? Don't know .. All that I do know is , and with humility I write this , I am pretty dam good and experienced teaching dogs and if I can't get through to a puppy** to choose to get off a bite , I am done for .. I have a problem one way or another ...

by duke1965 on 05 April 2020 - 12:04

centurian, you are assuming that I cannot teach an out on this puppy, again,

you take a video that shows drive in an 11 week old pup, for the purpose of showing the drive, and assume it cannot be trained to out

I posted sometimes ago a qoute from Helmut Raiser

drive is the motor, training is the brake

dont assume I cannot teach an out on a dog with crushing grip and high posession



by ValK on 05 April 2020 - 13:04

duke i can't contest you in knowledge and experience of present market offers. i'm not in this business and since early 90s my experience is limited to interaction with small amount of pups and adult dogs. but even this is enough to notice decline in physical and mental quality of GS stock in comparison to my previous experience of this breed. but also could be this is and was constant status of breeding in West. i can't be sure.
so, i not attempting to argue you. nevertheless, even having many common points in regard of GSDs, we still have somewhat different perceptions and approach to same point. i guess it's normal occurrence which come out from differences of previous personal experience.
as for ball/toy... i did have dogs, who per se didn't have interest in it. but they did use it as a mean to interact with me, albeit they would be absolutely indifferent to same ball or toy in your hands.
what that mean - they did have retrieve/ball drive or not?
and i still insist, bite is a nature of every dog. difference only that some dogs are enthusiast of bite, some dogs use it just as last resort.


by duke1965 on 05 April 2020 - 13:04

@ valk, but if a dog uses bite for last resort, will it be suitable for police or sport, if a dog doesnot show desired qualities in fair testing, what is the point in raising them for higher sport or policework for example


by Centurian on 05 April 2020 - 13:04


  Duke  when I talk about  'reading the dog ' I am referencing what is written in books  .They say for example the dog's posture means this  or that . I am saying that is not correct  conceptually .  Many people look at the body alone and I stated that  it is the  change , and what I didn't write to keep simple is also ' the aspects of the change ' and  in addition '  not only what is changed to what is changed to what ' .   Listening to a dog is dynamic not static and there people in the dog world that do not understand this , can't see this. . For example, many people still    are  bent on seeing things as a static body language  . For example , they think '  a wagging tails means this or that " and that is wrong conceptually  . A dog's tail wagging means ....... 


If I cannot control the context such that I cannot in any way under the sun convince this puppy , to get this puppy to decide , to leave the bite using any other tactic other than my brute force ... or the pup is so determined to not let what it has in it's mouth go , then,,, and here is the big then : Am I going to have control problems with this dog when it matures ,when it exerts his confidence, dominance and comes into his own ? Hmmm - who knows.  The notion that we do not want to see a dog give up on a bite or readily leave a bite is one  aspect , yes we want to see a dog with perserverence.   The flip side of that coin is a dog that will never ever ever  leave a bite at all no matter what YOU [ the handler ] say and Does !!!  So spare me abnout what the Dutch think   ffor in the USA I have seen enouigh people working dogs through 30 + years with control problems due to temeprament flaws ! Not only have I seen these dogs but also  , I have worked these dogs. So where there is an up there is an down , where there is an east there is a west.

       Again Duke , you pervert the meaning of the words and the  concepts. To reply to what you said the Police prefer and don't : They are two entirely different  aspects about  a dog : one is a dog  that has perserverence on a bite and the opposite aspect to that, is a dog that just won't let go [ it has a innate gentic defect to not lt anyting go ndera any circumstances ie. it will never out ! Will nevewr learn or be taught to out ]. There is a big qualitative difference in those two behaviors and gentic base between those kinds of two dogs  . So the art is to know the difference . No we do  not want a dog to give up on a bite , but that is not the same as a dog direly refusing to ever give the bite - ever  . I have worked some dogs like this in my life- they would never out .. no matter what . We taught these dogs but no matter what we did , they would not give up the bite , even an e collar didn't work . 3 e -collar, yes 3 e-collars on the dog , and the dog refused and still did not have a  reliable out.. well what more can I say ? They would simply not give up the bite. A dog giving up on a bite while it is engaged for it's life - that is different. 

Put what I said i to perspective , so you protest a puppy to go for one bite and then another. So Duke .. tell me ...How do you teach an adult dog to out ? The old fashioned way choke the hell out of the dog when it is biting to make it out ? Or do you get more from a dog , is the out more reliable from the dog , when you can get into that dogs head and allow him to realize that when you cue him to out it is in his interest to follow your lead ? If many people teach an out in this manner then how much different is it to do the same with a pup as you would an adult dog ? How do you teach a dog a 'call off ' from a being sent to bite , by putting a long line in the dog and choming the hell out of ut or clothes liniong the dog topfrevent it from biting ? Or do you get into the dog's head and show him that your words a better to follow by another means ? So do not pervert meanings Duke ..

     What I do think about some pups ? : I t hink sometrimes : If this is what it is like as a pup , what , again " what " is this puppy going to be like as an adult ? In my mind , and I am very very very good at getting any [ normal ] dog off a bite without force , if no way in hell I can achieve this with a puppy , then what chance will I have with success at this as an adult ? If I cannot outsmart a puppy , then how in the world am I going to confront this same bent in this same puppy dog as an adult ? Don't know , I will have to wait and see ... .. All that I do know is , and with humility I write this , I am pretty dam good and experienced teaching dogs and if I can't get through to a puppy** to choose to get off a bite , not give up , I mean to mske the choice when I want it to , then I am done for .. I have a problem one way or another ...

Ok ...you say this is the first time the pup in the video had a bite on a person or a bite at all - So What ...IMOP  ,a subjective observation and opinion  : that is a hell of a way to interact with a puppy first bite or not . You just dont comprehend Duke .. there are other and better way to see what you wanted to see with this puppy .. Now personally I do not care one way or the other .. but other people . these are my words /thoughts for whatever. ...

Hund ..I would like to address what you wrote . The notion that pups change . You have a point in repsects.
IMOp . yes they do and no they do not . Now this takes experience , and a lot of experience and knowledge . Will anyone disagree with me that : Genetics are fixed and cannot be changed. Also those traits that contribbute to Character can be changed. Any one disagree ? People that have worked with me in the decades , people that have been to clubs and come to me with their dogs ...my biggest gripe is that no dog should be interacted with unless you thoroughly understand that dog's emperemant . Many people working the dogs did not understand the dog - many use methods , techniques and so on . So , if you are experienced you can have a very very very good notion about what that dog can /will mature into as an adult. If you can see as fact purely genetic attributes , then you know no matter what they will be there as an adult too , provided the dog is raised peorperly and all factors in the dog's life remain equal . If a dog shows medium aggression genetically and if nutured correctly you will see this in an adult . If one takes a medium aggression geneitc dog , can you teach it rules such as you never ever bite ? yes.- but you have not changed the genetics of the dog. But genetically this is not always the case . an Unsound Temperament you cannot influence to change- it can only be managed. A fear biting dog will always be a fear biting dog . A dog with temperament flaw that prevetns it from outing , will never out predictably and reliably . So my meaning is that we have to understand temperament in general and comprehensively about a dog before we think of seeing into the future. If we see a a temperament deficiency in a puppy ,it will be that way it's whole life.

by ValK on 05 April 2020 - 13:04

duke, my point is that on condition dog has qualities, emphasized by me previously, i can turn this dog into outstanding fighter even if there aren't initial strong willingness for bite.
but i never can make reliable fighter from a dog, who demonstrate lots of enthusiasm in bite but lacking selfconfidence, stubbornness and bravery :)


by duke1965 on 05 April 2020 - 13:04

@ valk, disagree on the first statement, agree with the second


by duke1965 on 05 April 2020 - 14:04

cent read again, never said it was first bite, I said we didnot bite on various things, only the rag in video, would you really assume this pup never did bite my arm or leg before

for the rest, again, you make to much of it, its showing of natural drives, nothing more, nothing less, no second toughts hidden agendas, no testing, no training, just showing drives period

finally, you are assuming a lot again, about the pup, about how I would go about teaching out, 

time will tell, have a good day and stay safe






 


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