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by xPyrotechnic on 08 September 2019 - 14:09

Recently i saw a post which was very interesting on facebook about the DDR dogs and how many of the most famous ones did not have full DDR dogs in their pedigree some even had a west working line. If a dog is considered a DDR by bloodline then they will be extinct and im talking about the old DDR dogs, however if its by type meaning the temperment and the structure of the dog no matter the pedigree of the dog then it would be possible to bring back the DDR dogs.

by maofryan on 08 September 2019 - 14:09

Remember that the DDR (GDR) is a political construct. The actual DDR did not always exist. When politicians constructed the GDR, there were shepherd dogs there.....they were doing work and being family and farm helpers. Those dogs came from somewhere.....and since there was no DDR, they didn't come from there.

The "original" DDR dogs came from (the now) West Germany, Slovakia, Czech....the REGION. As the political construct of the "Iron Curtain" consolidated the American Kennel Club bent to the politics of the time. In the mid-80s we could only bring the dogs in (from Iron Curtain countries) for breeding, not for performance or conformation events (like you'd WANT to do that).

As the "DDR" evolved the registry they included dogs from the REGION, as those dogs came from verifiable registries, and the government (along with the breeders) developed their own registry. The criteria were (in a way) stricter than in other European countries, as the dogs were presented for structure, bite, coat, ears and character at 6 months to obtain registration. They kept ridiculous records, how many bitches a particular male bred....how many offspring...longcoats...bad ears...overbites...undescended testicles.....all on old typewriters....on newsprint....every single dog.

When we bought dogs, we could either buy them from the owners (in US dollars) or from the government (in US dollars but they paid the owners in DDR Deutchmarks). The former was much preferred. Sometimes we had someone walk them across the Berlin Wall on Sundays when families were allowed to visit each other. Some very important dogs were walked across the wall.....by a little old lady....who got a different dog to walk back.

All this said......the point is that a TYPE of dog developed. The protection test was different (run away bite) and the government needs for dogs were different (more defensive, more reactive....with an emphasis on tracking and trailing) and that's what they made.

SO, if all you young folks are so smart about tracing dogs back and deciding some ancient ancestor of some dog who was actually REGISTERED as a DDR dog was not a DDR dog.......congratulations. You are indeed correct....because at some point there were NEVER any DDR dogs.

There are still some breeders alive who were instrumental in producing and improving the GDR dog. Werner Schulz is one. Parchiomer-Land. He will tell you how it was......and how all this pedigree hype is a false premise.

Once DDR dogs became a THING in the US, Ludweigseck and Grafental bred them like crazy....why??? Because (like everything else) there was/is a market for them. Can't blame them for that.

But a good dog is still a good dog. Some breeders try to retain diversity of pedigree as well has heartiness, longevity, and TYPE. STASI is one. Any ass can kick down a barn......but if you actually KNOW your political and geographic history.....you'll realize the DDR dog is a TYPE, not a microscopic distant pedigree evaluation. Because, you don't have to look too far back to find, W German working dogs, VA dogs, Slovak dogs, Czech dogs who all contributed to the TYPE some of us consider DDR dogs.

Sarah Slader-Waldorf (now 66 years old.....I was there for this)
Konigsdorf




 

by ValK on 08 September 2019 - 19:09

xPyrotechnic
foremost the type.
dog can be with no traceable background at all but by the phenotype and temper be ideal dog, as this ideal have been seen back then in DDR/Eastern bloc.
another dog can have bulletproof paper with most famous DDR dogs in there but with neither the build, nor the temperament to support this claims.
you and other should understand that breeding of GSDs in DDR and Eastern bloc was run with goal to produce dogs for practical use with minimum (or none at all) complications, which might impact or obstruct dog's performance. companion dog was secondary and not very important objective.

maofryan
i wouldn't call dogs of Stasi kennel a type of DDR dogs.
it's rather hypertrophied imitation, purposed to cash on those, who not familiar with former Eastern breeding of GSDs.
and seems for that breeder it's do work well.

by maofryan on 08 September 2019 - 19:09

Im not unfamiliar.......this is my 46th year breeding. I like the STASI dogs, I like them a lot. You are entitled to your opinion.....and so am I. I do not count myself as uninformed.....nor do I think there is a reason to belittle a person with a different opinion to one you hold.

This is a discussion board....not a courage test. But as in a courage test......those with high pitched barking and raised hackles may receive lower scores. But that is, of course, at the discretion of the judge.

Sarah

by xPyrotechnic on 08 September 2019 - 19:09

I agree with Valk and i have heard many complaints about them even forged pedigrees. I am only interested in creating dogs similar to the old DDR because temperament wise they were very hard to handle i would like to make dogs in my program to be able to get on with their handler without being overly dominant as well as not being socially friendly to every person on the street as they must be suspicious of everyone.

by maofryan on 08 September 2019 - 20:09

Some of the dogs had poor nerves, but some did not. The challenge was to breed the dogs with very good nerve strength, and some prey......which was also lacking, and was problematic given the sport and tracking training methods of the 80s. Some dogs were nerve bags, and should never have been bred for the general public......but their jobs were to be hyper-vigilant. They weren't hard to handle because they were aggressive or strong....it was because they were formidable in appearance but weak in character. Great for guarding an installation (like the Berlin Wall) but not very useful in any kind of work other than being tied to a wall, and letting guard know when people were about.

The dogs I saw in the 80s to the 90s were often big masculine bitches that might even eat their own puppies when stressed, OR really excellent dogs who were solid no matter what happened. Some of those puppy-eaters were mighty massive, fine looking females, but obviously not suitable for the genetic pool....and Mother Nature (God or Darwin) weeded them out for us.....even if we were too stupid to do that.

So those that were (or are) difficult to handle may be lacking nerve strength......I don't know. Carefully bred for good nerve strength and drive over the years we've gotten some nice dogs with great nerve but, when mature....will not back down to a threat. That's my kind of dog.

Sarah
Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 09 September 2019 - 06:09

Sarah, thank you so much for the articulate, clear and logical way you have described both the historical situation , and that with today's 'DDR' GSDs. Some of us, who are of similar age but less well informed about the workings of the dogs in the two 'halves' of Germany during the Wall years, find what you tell us very illuminating !

Linda (UK)

by maofryan on 09 September 2019 - 10:09

Linda

You are most welcome. I find it interesting that politics has so much bearing on animal husbandry. The requirements of our animal helpers (even those we eat) are modified to meet the political requirements of the time.

There was an unpopular (but grudgingly accepted) "reunification tax" when the Berlin Wall came down. As you may well imagine, this led to a general feeling of angst toward the East German citizens. During that time there was an apparent attempt of the SV to eliminate (or at least make extremely undesirable) dogs from the DDR registry. Inexplicably they all were evaluated as "noch zeugelassen " in their hip evaluations. I have a wonderful dog broker then.....Hansi.....who was the best X-ray reader on the planet. I bought a number of excellent dogs during that time. They were all OFA good or excellent here (which he knew). So if you see n.z. dogs in the pedigrees from 90-92, you might as well disregard......it was a systematic attempt to reduce the influence of DDR dogs in the breed (as far as I can tell).

Sarah

by ValK on 09 September 2019 - 16:09

maofryan
i apologize if you took my response this way. never had an intention to belittle you or anyone else on this discussion board ever. in any talk i participate only if topic is familiar to me and i can contribute to discussion from my very own practical experience.
i'm familiar with Eastern dogs through being involved and through owning those dogs from early 70's up to 2000 when my last dog from that breeding passed away. anyway, i very much appreciating your willingness to share your own experience.
you said "I like the STASI dogs, I like them a lot" purely on base of aesthetic perception of their visual appearance. in same way own impression would be expressed by the fan of highly crippled show sieger dog, regardless of fact that dog technically is not functional due to badly distorted body constitution.
my opinion in regard of mentioned by you Stasi's dogs are based on comparison to dogs, i'd worked and owned during the era so call "fully developed socialism". i admit, my experience were limited to narrowly specialized breeding program, directed to supply dogs for border use. most likely none of those dogs would be ever able to win sieger title even in former DDR due to many factors, one of which is that those dogs was bigger in build than average, written in breed standard. but after all they wasn't bred for the ring or sport participation or to be a companion dogs.
the breeder in discussion does claim his breeding based on ideal of former GSDs of military/border usage. but you see, his dogs, albeit have unusual and impressive look, are quite far from what i know. size of the border dogs was achieved by strong bone structure with very well developed muscles. in his dogs i see volume of dog's mass and coat which creates impression of size. big heads but with undeveloped lower jaws. such mouth won't produce enough of strength to hold even own weight. and more important - inspite all my effort, i wasn't been able to find even single video, which can show proof for his dogs temperament to be at least equal to requirements had been set back then for border type of dogs.
that's why my remark was that it's only a sale pitch, directed at those who is not familiar with dogs which had been used in former Eastern bloc by state institutions in military applications.
if we talk about civilian breeding in DDR, in which i'm not well versed, anyone can easily take a look at the past DDR siegers and famous dogs listed in PDB database and compare them to offer from Stasi.


xPyrotechnic
I am only interested in creating dogs similar to the old DDR because temperament wise they were very hard to handle


that gonna to be difficult task to accomplish alone.
in regard of "they were very hard to handle", it's one of many widely spread on internet myths. DDR dogs was like in any other location with wide variety of temperaments, achieved in accordance to purpose of breeding goals.

by duke1965 on 09 September 2019 - 17:09

I have a small booklet with infoand pics of DDR siegers of work, show and herding, might dig it upand scan some pics

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