Civil Dogs and Civil Work - Page 7

if you test a dog in muzzle, you can train him on sleeve,suit etc whatever you want, no issue because he will naturally also bite when the sleeve and/or suit are not there

 

or, other way around, if a dog with right genetics, is trained on sleeve or suit, he will bite for real if triggerred to do so

Really, all that matters is the dog you are training, but for the sake of discussion, I don't think there is an actual trait of being genetically civil. I think genetics play a major role, but the trait/drive package that contributes to a dog's willingness and desire to fight a man can be quite varied. For example, one well known breeder of KNPV Mals and DS's selects away from the traditional concept of civil/defensive dogs and thinks all a dog needs is a ton of drive to bite to be civil. The advantage to that approach is with no defense there is less chance of flight. The only exception in terms of traits is true social aggression where a dog is highly motivated to bite anyone outside of his pack simply because they are outside his pack, but that trait has largely been bred away from and lost. And it is a trait that doesn't involve defense or nerve issues. Overall, I think the main factors are genetics, not over imprinting young pups on equipment and teaching the pup the helper is not his friend, muzzle fighting and a variety of creative scenarios that mimic real life situations in challenging environments.

"I don't think there is an actual trait of being genetically civil."

wrong assumption. civil potential does passing to offsprings albeit in varying straight. odds to find strong civil dog from genetic pool of dogs with strong civility way much greater than from pool of soft and submisive dogs.

"thinks all a dog needs is a ton of drive to bite to be civil"

again wrong. one can teach the dog to act like civil but in fact it's just teaching and encouraging the dog to be bully. such dog wouldn't withstand real pressure and pain.

"The advantage to that approach is with no defense there is less chance of flight."

i'm not sure what that means but civil dog is not mainly about defense (which in varying degree available in any dog), rather readiness of dog for offensive actions, in spite of any possible bad consequences for dog.

but that true that "trait has largely been bred away from and lost". such dogs wasn't big issue behind "iron curtain" because always have been used for guarding purposes in either private households or businesses, with very little contacts with humans. but for commercial purpose in the West with very strict rules and punishment, market for this type is extremely narrow.

It is somewhat splitting hairs, but I think you missed my point. I believe genetics have very much to do with what people define as civil. I just don't think "civil" behavior in and of itself is an inherited trait, but rather the result of other traits and degrees of those traits. For example, some subscribe to the trait of active defensive aggression, which is sort of an oxymoron because defensive aggression is always reactive. But a dog with strong active defensive aggression, is genetically hardwired to bite, without training, as his first response to a perceived threat. That would be different from passive defensive aggression, where a dog is genetically hardwired to bark at a perceived threat to chase the threat away. The latter type of dog can be easily taught to do well at bite work and even become "civil" but it is mainly a result of training. For me, these terms and traits are more important for breeders to understand and recognize than handlers. Regarding defense and flight, I think there is a correlation for dogs with low thresholds for defense and sharpness to be more prone to flight when really pressed. Others have argued there is no correlation.

again one big mis assumption apple

A high preydrive dog with bad nerves will run as fast as a civil dog with bad nerves, both need stable nerves  and courage to stay in there

Actually, you are partly making the point I was trying to make. Too many people think they have these tough, defensive dogs that are civil, but when the pressure gets intense they shut down or go into flight. The nerves definitely have to be there and are a big issue in the breed IMO. It partially goes back to the IPO issue not really testing a dog's nerves at all. They eliminated the gunshot from the BH, went to a padded stick, and then tried to remove the stick altogether. And a gunshot and stick hit are really not much pressure at all.

same as many people think they have this strong, fast dog with full calm grips

often pressured on the bite and ooo look how strong, you want to know how many of these dogs fall apart when you take away ball and sleeve and take them for a walk away from the owner

so we can conclude that every dog, working in prey, or in defense, needs more than that alone to stay in the fight or even get to the fight

That is debatable, but probably most true in the GSD. Some KNPV trainers say they don't want their dogs working in defense, but rather fight drive. That is why some of the unregistered Dutch Mals and DS's are so intense in prey. The more the man fights, the more the dog want to possess and conquer his prey. But those breeds and certain lines have been selected for a different drive package than the GSD IMO. Plus their prey drive is much more intense than a GSD. Some are more prone to see a man as prey, which is not typical for dogs. Rather, most dogs are conditioned starting with a smaller prey object moving up to larger prey objects, a sleeve and sometimes up to a suit. I have heard dogs that have a genetic predisposition to see the man as actual prey as having non-classical prey drive. So I guess some of the Dutch trainers would say you a dog to work in prey and fight drive, assuming fight drive is actually a drive rather than the result of a combination of drives. Also with the dogs/lines I am referring to, because threy tend to have such extreme prey drive, they have the added element of frustration aggression which contributes to fighting a man.

"their prey drive is much more intense than a GSD. Some are more prone to see a man as prey, which is not typical for dogs."

sort of like this one 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4zU1Qxe6_A